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Moral Argument

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jayceeii

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Objective Good Not Secured
« on: October 11, 2018, 09:06:55 am »
The moral argument runs,
Premise 1: If God does not exist, then objective moral values and duties do not exist.
Premise 2: Objective moral values and duties do exist.
Conclusion: Therefore, God exists.

This argument could only possibly be valid in a case where humanity had risen to objective good, but this is manifestly not the case. Astronomy tells us that there are five billion years left for the Earth, and geology tells us that human civilization will exhaust the available minerals in a thousand years. Until the planet is established in true sustainability, with the population and resource demand kept at reasonable levels, humanity has not secured its place upon the only habitat given to it, in vast space.

If man has not arisen to the objective good of himself and his offspring, the good to which he has arisen must be limited or relative, not objective. Then we notice mutually greedy persons will agree among themselves to certain boundaries to selfish behavior. In general one can say humans take an interest in a family, and wanting to see this family protected will uphold and honor the families of others. The long-term results are not secured, from a limited vision, an inability to care about offspring past a few generations.

A further point arises, that if God sees humanity’s failure to secure advanced civilization on Earth, this has not been communicated by revealed religion. There has also been no guidance about the best political system, as men were left to ferret out for themselves through war. There has been no explanation of the causes of war or attempts to show the rational ways to avoid war. Though told to love the neighbor as ourselves, Jesus related that money was exchanged in the parable of the Good Samaritan, so we don’t even know if God supports free healthcare. All we seem to have from God is, “Be fruitful and multiply.” If God is real, He has had no respect for humanity’s capacity for sound reason.

To put the situation more emphatically, humanity can be found following only short-term goals, but objectively speaking its goals and God’s goals as Creator are similar, which is to say a long-term sustainable advanced civilization. When the metals are exhausted we’d have little choice but to go back to hunting and gathering, but that’s where we’re headed. Religion has given no warning, and the scientists who gathered the statistics do not see it. In other words the entire planet’s in darkness, rushing to a tragedy only God may prevent.

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Wretch

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Re: Objective Good Not Secured
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2019, 10:57:31 am »
"This argument could only possibly be valid in a case where humanity had risen to objective good."

How do you figure that???  Which premise is implausible, and why?

The premise is that objective moral values and duties exist, not that humanity always lives by them. It seems that you've conflated values and duties with actual behavior.

People breaking the law, in no way shows that the law doesn't exist.

Despite our imperfection, we do still affirm that some behavior is objectively wrong, meaning morally wrong,means ing in violation of objective moral values or duties.

The rest is highly speculative is off topic, and

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jayceeii

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Re: Objective Good Not Secured
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2019, 11:09:41 am »
"This argument could only possibly be valid in a case where humanity had risen to objective good."

How do you figure that???  Which premise is implausible, and why?

The premise is that objective moral values and duties exist, not that humanity always lives by them. It seems that you've conflated values and duties with actual behavior.

People breaking the law, in no way shows that the law doesn't exist.

Despite our imperfection, we do still affirm that some behavior is objectively wrong, meaning morally wrong,means ing in violation of objective moral values or duties.

The rest is highly speculative is off topic, and
W: "This argument could only possibly be valid in a case where humanity had risen to objective good." How do you figure that???  Which premise is implausible, and why?

J: Premise 2 is invalid. People that are not rising to objective good cannot say, “Objective moral values and duties do exist.” You have to be able to see a thing, before you can make valid statements about it. Similarly, not having seen the soul, they cannot say the soul exists. The information is beyond their minds.

W: The premise is that objective moral values and duties exist, not that humanity always lives by them.

J: Again, if they exist but are not seen, humans are not able to speak meaningfully about them. I list specific standards by which planets rise and fall, and you are not able to “see” these standards are real.

W: It seems that you've conflated values and duties with actual behavior.

J: You construct a straw man here, failing to notice my actual proposition. You are not wondering if a higher set of values exists than human minds have conceived, or could know, even when some of these values are listed.

W: People breaking the law, in no way shows that the law doesn't exist.

J: The Bible admits the angels to be a separately created race, so it is logical to suppose their values to be higher than human values, and possibly incomprehensible to human minds. Besides ruining the planet, humans may be breaking several angelic social laws every minute. This doesn't mean they can understand or correct their errors.

W: Despite our imperfection, we do still affirm that some behavior is objectively wrong, meaning morally wrong,means ing in violation of objective moral values or duties.

J: Again, you only reassert the human domain, where I have cited the angelic domain. As a human you aren't curious about that, and this has been a tremendous flaw in the religions down the ages. Always religious adherents should have been wondering how Heaven differs from Earth, and whether some of the higher standards could be followed down here.

W: The rest is highly speculative is off topic, and

J: The future of human civilization is not off topic, including for humans. Your mind just can't think about it, along with seven billion others. God can think about it.