Archived

Moral Argument

Read 1905 times

jayceeii

  • **
  • 493 Posts
    • View Profile
Better than Good
« on: October 29, 2018, 01:52:04 pm »
An interesting case, is if Jesus returns at Judgment and says, “All these guys are talking about the goodness of God, but I can’t find one good man!” Theologians in particular debate about God’s goodness, but are they truly good themselves? If they are not good, are they fit to judge God, to say, “God must be good our way”? Goodness resolves into particular instances; what if God reverses most of what you’ve decided?

In practice, claiming to know goodness, you’d have to show me a man who never quarrels or gets angry, is not greedy, loves his neighbor in practical ways so that his survival is ensured, and most especially who would be prepared to receive “God’s messengers,” without calling them insane before asking one question. (God is no longer allowed to contact His church, as part of the dogma of religion.) Abraham was not able to find ten men in order to save Sodom, but as the story works out with the one he did find, Lot, the entire village turned against him in universal condemnation. Isn’t that today’s situation too?

As you say, “God must be a pure, perfect being,” you must prove you are saying more than, “Support us in our quarrels and greed!” Suppose God  comes and says, “I don’t like your businesses, and why have you divided the lands into nations? I’d never do that. What about these wars? Don’t you even like each other? Why is there homelessness?” With long faces you will say in disappointment and judgment, “God, you’re not made in our image.” God responds with a long face, in disappointment and Judgment, “That’s not all, you don’t even have an image of me.”

Theology to be more than speculation, would need to start with an authentic image of God, but if this means something much different from humans, as fully rational people this should have been expected and incorporated in your theories. God will be greater than the greatest you can imagine, but also completely unlike what you imagine. God is great in the ways He is really great, not the ways humans prefer or could conceive. I wonder if the angels generate such a science, based on their self-image, as human theology is based on the human image. Or, do they simply rely upon the Lord to relate the traits of the Invisible God, or studying Him learn to know them?

1

Wretch

  • ***
  • 2494 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Better than Good
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2019, 11:16:25 am »
Christ Jesus already told us that there is not one good man, none.  Christ's Gospel just is that we all fall short of God, we all violate God's moral law; we are all sinners deserving death.  Perfect justice demands it.  But God is also loving, so about 2,000 years ago He Himself condescended to human form, endured our evil fallen world, endured gross injustice, humiliation, agonizing torture, crucifixion, and death, bearing the sins of the world and the just sentence for all of us.  In that God Himself paid the fine on our behalf such that should we accept Him, we may be saved from righteous justice in Him and transformed away from sin and to Christ.  Pray for God to reveal Himself to you and repent/confess your sins to Him.  If you can sincerely do that, then you will see the truth, and the truth will set you free.

As to the nature of God:  What if we have the revealed word of God Himself?  We do, and it includes much the same type of description of God in totality as being incomprehensible to and different from us as you seem to present  "My thoughts are not your thoughts... My ways are not your ways".

We already know God's mor

2

jayceeii

  • **
  • 493 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Better than Good
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2019, 11:08:31 am »
Christ Jesus already told us that there is not one good man, none.  Christ's Gospel just is that we all fall short of God, we all violate God's moral law; we are all sinners deserving death.  Perfect justice demands it.  But God is also loving, so about 2,000 years ago He Himself condescended to human form, endured our evil fallen world, endured gross injustice, humiliation, agonizing torture, crucifixion, and death, bearing the sins of the world and the just sentence for all of us.  In that God Himself paid the fine on our behalf such that should we accept Him, we may be saved from righteous justice in Him and transformed away from sin and to Christ.  Pray for God to reveal Himself to you and repent/confess your sins to Him.  If you can sincerely do that, then you will see the truth, and the truth will set you free.

As to the nature of God:  What if we have the revealed word of God Himself?  We do, and it includes much the same type of description of God in totality as being incomprehensible to and different from us as you seem to present  "My thoughts are not your thoughts... My ways are not your ways".

We already know God's mor
W: Christ Jesus already told us that there is not one good man, none. 

J: You admit my argument, then, that men are unfit to speak about God's goodness, as occurs in this theology forum. If men are not good, they cannot ask if God is good, because they don't know what “good” can mean. In particular there are questions of Judgment and Mercy, where men would always allow more and more men to inhabit the globe, despite the devastating effects on the resources.

W: Christ's Gospel just is that we all fall short of God, we all violate God's moral law; we are all sinners deserving death. 

J: Again, you seem to be freely admitting my point, although this nullifies the practice of theology.

W: Perfect justice demands it. 

J: If you could understand this sentence, you wouldn't be a “sinner deserving death.” In other words, only the pure mind can see the actual flaws at the core of human personality. The flawed minds cannot see them, which is part of their flaw.

W: But God is also loving, so about 2,000 years ago He Himself condescended to human form, endured our evil fallen world, endured gross injustice, humiliation, agonizing torture, crucifixion, and death, bearing the sins of the world and the just sentence for all of us.

J: So you say, but you only have this on Paul's authority. Jesus spoke vaguely, because the Lord is the Truth and while supporting rumors for awhile, eventually these must fall away. You're also wrong to consider the suffering of Jesus to be over. Christianity is an emblem of God's persecution, Jesus up on the cross exactly where you intend to keep Him.

W: In that God Himself paid the fine on our behalf such that should we accept Him, we may be saved from righteous justice in Him and transformed away from sin and to Christ. 

J: Well, so reality answers to dollars and cents, now? You think Jesus can just “pay the money,” and the world will be healed? It's a nice rumor, but to save all may not only be outside God's intent, but His power. I have yet to meet any transformed man!

W: Pray for God to reveal Himself to you and repent/confess your sins to Him.

J: The idea prayer can be efficacious springs from the idea God is small and ignorant, like a man. The better route is to serve God, and let Him decide. But you'd have to know the authentic routes of service.

W:  If you can sincerely do that, then you will see the truth, and the truth will set you free.

J: I have not met one transformed man, nor one that sees truth! I have seen truths, and been freed.

W: As to the nature of God:  What if we have the revealed word of God Himself? 

J: What if you have only rumors and innuendo? The Bible presents only weak human standards, not God's rigorous standards. The faults of the world are deep, and religion was not intended to be the cure.

W: We do, and it includes much the same type of description of God in totality as being incomprehensible to and different from us as you seem to present  "My thoughts are not your thoughts... My ways are not your ways".

J: The intent of my post was to begin doing some of the raising, and not unsurprisingly I failed. The post goes a long ways past the Bible in describing exactly how God's standards will be higher, but as Jesus said, there are no “ears to hear.”

W: We already know God's mor

J: It looks as if you are set to say, “We already know God's morality,” but you just admitted God to be incomprehensible, even were you to meet Him and were He to try to explain some of His ways to you.