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Trinity

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Re: Is 'depression' a real illness?
« Reply #60 on: December 07, 2018, 12:47:18 am »
Good point. Technically, medicine is not strictly a science, but a mix between science and engineering. Purpose is important withing engineering. One part is built upon another and every part serves a purpose within the whole. Engineers are purpose driven, they think in end goals. Medicine cannot be properly understood without understanding the relevance of purpose and meaning to the human being. People are not machines made of nuts and bolts ticking like a clock until the battery runs low. We are organic, not mechanic, and medicine has to take into account that we cannot live by bread alone. The notion that man needs meaning is not new, Matthew 4:4 mentions it. When God is done away with, meaning is done away with. What is left are bread and circuses, entertaining yet meaningless nevertheless.

According to theists, if someone dies of heart attack, the purpose of the heart was to kill that person (because the death of that person at that exact time is the fulfilment of the perfect plan). The purpose of our organisms is to grow old and die. If someone suffers chronic pain, it is because he was supposed to suffer, as there is no gratuitous suffering. But then if the medicine tries to counteract that and fails, it works against the God's purpose.

Can you mention who says that so I can slap them on the cheek?

Seriously, the purpose of the heart is to pump blood, and failing to pump blood is for the heart to fail in its purpose. The purpose of our organism is to be in union with God. Not being in union with God is the tragedy of man and the cause of man's depression and lack of true happiness.

“What else does this craving, and this helplessness, proclaim but that there was once in man a true happiness, of which all that now remains is the empty print and trace? This he tries in vain to fill with everything around him, seeking in things that are not there the help he cannot find in those that are, though none can help, since this infinite abyss can be filled only with an infinite and immutable object; in other words by God himself.”
Blaise Pascal, Pensées VII (425).
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. - Psalm 19:1

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Jabberwock

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Re: Is 'depression' a real illness?
« Reply #61 on: December 07, 2018, 05:05:12 am »
Can you mention who says that so I can slap them on the cheek?

Seriously, the purpose of the heart is to pump blood, and failing to pump blood is for the heart to fail in its purpose. The purpose of our organism is to be in union with God. Not being in union with God is the tragedy of man and the cause of man's depression and lack of true happiness.

“What else does this craving, and this helplessness, proclaim but that there was once in man a true happiness, of which all that now remains is the empty print and trace? This he tries in vain to fill with everything around him, seeking in things that are not there the help he cannot find in those that are, though none can help, since this infinite abyss can be filled only with an infinite and immutable object; in other words by God himself.”
Blaise Pascal, Pensées VII (425).

Is not every particular death a part of the God's plan?

Suppose someone's heart fails when he is 65. If it was God's purpose that his heart pumps his blood when he is seventy, then God has failed in his plan. On the other hand, if it was God's plan that he dies at 65, then his heart is supposed to stop working at that exact moment. Till that moment the purpose of the heart is to suspend his life, at that moment its purpose is to stop suspending his life. If the heart was supposed to supply his blood indefinitely, then God would arrange it so that it would - he is omnipotent, you know.

If there is no gratuitous suffering, then each and every case of suffering is supposed to happen. If someone is to suffer a terrible pain at a particular moment according to God's plan, then God actualizes the world in such a way that the nervous system tortures the man at that particular moment. Again, God could anesthesize anyone he would want to.
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Trinity

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Re: Is 'depression' a real illness?
« Reply #62 on: December 07, 2018, 09:52:58 am »
Jabberwock,

The purpose of the heart does not change in case of failure. Something being part of God's plan does not entail that God determines what happens, rather it entails that what happens cannot deter God's plan.
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. - Psalm 19:1

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Jabberwock

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Re: Is 'depression' a real illness?
« Reply #63 on: December 07, 2018, 10:15:23 am »
Jabberwock,

The purpose of the heart does not change in case of failure. Something being part of God's plan does not entail that God determines what happens, rather it entails that what happens cannot deter God's plan.

The point is that the heart HAS to fail at the particular moment so that God's plan is not deterred.
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Trinity

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Re: Is 'depression' a real illness?
« Reply #64 on: December 07, 2018, 10:36:52 am »
Jabberwock,

God's plan is not deterred by any failure, nor does it require any failure. Hopefully Kurros grants me permission to communicate via Bible passages:

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“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
    neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
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“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
    so are my ways higher than your ways
    and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Isaiah 55:8-9.

No failure can prevent God to achieve His plan.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 10:40:06 am by Trinity »
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. - Psalm 19:1

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Jabberwock

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Re: Is 'depression' a real illness?
« Reply #65 on: December 07, 2018, 10:42:02 am »
Jabberwock,

God's plan is not deterred by any failure, nor does it require any failure. Hopefully Kurros grants me permission to communicate via Bible passages:

No failure can prevent God to achieve His plan.

If the heart attack is not required for God's plan, why does God not just heal the person? He peforms healings from time to time, does he not?
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Trinity

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Re: Is 'depression' a real illness?
« Reply #66 on: December 07, 2018, 10:43:52 am »
Jabberwock,

He sure does, but you assume that you know more than God does. God knows more than you do, does He not?
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. - Psalm 19:1

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Jabberwock

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Re: Is 'depression' a real illness?
« Reply #67 on: December 07, 2018, 11:06:01 am »
He sure does, but you assume that you know more than God does. God knows more than you do, does He not?

No, I assume no such thing.
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Trinity

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Re: Is 'depression' a real illness?
« Reply #68 on: December 07, 2018, 11:22:21 am »
Why does God have to heal us? Does God owe us anything?
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. - Psalm 19:1

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Jabberwock

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Re: Is 'depression' a real illness?
« Reply #69 on: December 07, 2018, 11:41:02 am »
Why does God have to heal us? Does God owe us anything?

No, he does not have to. Still, it would be an act of kindness, would it not?
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Trinity

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Re: Is 'depression' a real illness?
« Reply #70 on: December 07, 2018, 11:56:49 am »
Healing would be one way to be kind, but not the only way. God has been so kind to us that He died for us.
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. - Psalm 19:1

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Emuse

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Re: Is 'depression' a real illness?
« Reply #71 on: December 07, 2018, 12:16:19 pm »
Being Itself died? How did everything stay in existence whilst that was happening?

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Trinity

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Re: Is 'depression' a real illness?
« Reply #72 on: December 07, 2018, 12:20:27 pm »
Emuse,

Death is not what I think you think it is. What do you think death is?
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. - Psalm 19:1

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Emuse

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Re: Is 'depression' a real illness?
« Reply #73 on: December 07, 2018, 12:21:41 pm »
Deathness itself?

Why don't you explain what you take death to be and then explain to everyone how God is able to participate in it given that God is without beginning or end by definition, hm? 
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 12:28:16 pm by Emuse »

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Trinity

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Re: Is 'depression' a real illness?
« Reply #74 on: December 07, 2018, 12:36:16 pm »
Emuse,

I give you a D for that answer.
Death is when the body is left without the breath of life.
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. - Psalm 19:1