lapwing

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Using the Bible as a debating tool in RFF
« on: May 15, 2019, 04:54:01 pm »
Quote from: Wretch
Do not judge, lest you be judged likewise. 

I've followed Ben Shapiro for years.  His character is solid.  How's yours?
Wretch's response to me following my assessment of BS as "an obnoxious entitled twat" based on an interview shown on the BBC of an interview with Andrew Neil.
NB: Apparently "twat" has different usages either side of the Atlantic.

Compare to

One of those listening was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth. She was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message. 15When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home. “If you consider (Gk judge) me a believer in the Lord,” she said, “come and stay at my house.” And she persuaded us


Now that doesn't negate what Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount but it does show we need to be careful when using proof texts - is the chosen text (that suits our pov) fully representative of "what the Bible says".?

Wretch has described even Marine Le Pen as a "leftist" istr. I wonder how many mainstream French political commentators share that view. Note that the concepts of left and right in politics was invented by the French. Isn't labelling someone a "leftist" making a judgment. I'm not saying BS should go to hell. He can answer for himself before God as we all will have to do.

As for Wretch's non biblical last point, what does one say on an internet forum? "Oh yeah my character is solid how's yours" That's just silly. In another thread Trinity has asked me whether I beat my wife. Equally silly.

One is reminded of the "interrogation" of Kim Philby.

"Are you spying for the Russians Kim old chap"
"Of course not old boy"

Let's move away from this age of stupid style of debating on RF
« Last Edit: May 15, 2019, 04:59:49 pm by lapwing »
For by one sacrifice Jesus has made perfect forever those who are being sanctified.

"Those who are still afraid of men have no fear of God, and those who have fear of God have ceased to be afraid of men"
"If the world refuses justice, the Christian will pursue mercy"
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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TheCross

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Re: Using the Bible as a debating tool in RFF
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2019, 05:32:42 pm »
I mean, sure.

The ”beating your wife” is misunderstood from your angle, as this is a thought provoking question to ask that is perfectly valid, you should not take it personally.

Marine le pen is, to the american(and I assume Wretch is) a leftist.
She supports socialistic policies, speaks of bigger government in areas that would make the american right tremble etc, I think we really should start saying EU right and left or US right.

They are not and never will be the same aslong as the main policy is socialism-ish.
Gal 2:20: I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

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Language-Gamer

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Re: Using the Bible as a debating tool in RFF
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2019, 06:13:50 pm »
Part of me thinks the church would be better off if we had some boxes you had to check before using the Bible publicly. Another Hauerwas quote:

“Most North American Christians assume they have a right, if not an obligation, to read the Bible. I challenge that assumption. No task is more important than for the church to take the Bible out of the hands of individual Christians in North America. Let us no longer give the Bible to every child when they enter the third grade or whenever their assumed rise to Christian maturity is marked….Let us rather tell them and their parents that they are possessed by habits far too corrupt for them to be encouraged to read the Bible on their own.”
I told her all about how we been livin' a lie

And that they love to see us all go to prison or die

Like, "Baby, look at how they show us on the TV screen"

But all she ever want me to do is unzip her jeans

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Wretch

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Re: Using the Bible as a debating tool in RFF
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2019, 10:03:34 pm »
I don't recall referring to Ms. Le Pen as a leftist.  I really only know about her as an anti-globalist and that she ran against some globalist leftists.  I'd have thought she was more right than left.  I'm pro state's rights as she was pro nation-states' rights in the EU.  Let state govts do whatever they deem fit, just don't allow the EU or Fed govt to control it all.

As to the other point.  If all you saw was Ben's interview with that BBC bloke, I don't fault your impression. He behaved less than wonderfully.  I was trying to help you better know the man, and admonish that you might do well to show some charity given the singular reference you were dealing with. 

I don't see the scripture reference taken out of context at all. 

Judge not lest ye be judged likewise.  Pretty darn simple.  Basically, don't be a hypocrite.

The one thing that strikes me so often on the forum is the propensity of some to make harsh personal judgements. 

Charity brothers, charity.

If I'm going to be wrong about someone, I want to be wrong thinking better of them than they are.


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Wretch

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Re: Using the Bible as a debating tool in RFF
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2019, 10:11:32 pm »
Lapwing:

I wasn't using Christ's words as a debating tool. 

I offered them as friendly criticism in response to what I viewed as uncharitable self-righteous hypocrisy.


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lapwing

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Re: Using the Bible as a debating tool in RFF
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2019, 03:36:57 am »
I mean, sure.

The ”beating your wife” is misunderstood from your angle, as this is a thought provoking question to ask that is perfectly valid, you should not take it personally.

Marine le pen is, to the american(and I assume Wretch is) a leftist.
She supports socialistic policies, speaks of bigger government in areas that would make the american right tremble etc, I think we really should start saying EU right and left or US right.

They are not and never will be the same aslong as the main policy is socialism-ish.

I didn't take the "beating your wife" question personally. But, like the Philby question, it's pointless. If someone is beating their wife they would deny it and if they weren't they would deny it.

And what is the point of viewing French politics from the US pov if you end up with all the parties being leftists? Sort of defeats the idea of left and right doesn't it. Are you saying that Europe is entirely leftist? If not, what proportion isn't (should be roughly 50-50)? Which are the leftist and rightist parties in France?
For by one sacrifice Jesus has made perfect forever those who are being sanctified.

"Those who are still afraid of men have no fear of God, and those who have fear of God have ceased to be afraid of men"
"If the world refuses justice, the Christian will pursue mercy"
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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lapwing

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Re: Using the Bible as a debating tool in RFF
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2019, 03:43:20 am »
Wretch,

Actually I didn't say out of context but there were other scriptures with a different message (which you ignored)

The Sermon on the Mount was given to the disciples. Later Jesus said they would judge the twelve tribes of Israel. Ah but that's in the hereafter so different. Except it doesn't say that in the Sermon on the Mount.

If you're going to ask what the Bible says about judging people you need to look at more than just one example.

How do you "judge" which charities to give to?
For by one sacrifice Jesus has made perfect forever those who are being sanctified.

"Those who are still afraid of men have no fear of God, and those who have fear of God have ceased to be afraid of men"
"If the world refuses justice, the Christian will pursue mercy"
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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TheCross

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Re: Using the Bible as a debating tool in RFF
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2019, 05:00:15 am »
I mean, sure.

The ”beating your wife” is misunderstood from your angle, as this is a thought provoking question to ask that is perfectly valid, you should not take it personally.

Marine le pen is, to the american(and I assume Wretch is) a leftist.
She supports socialistic policies, speaks of bigger government in areas that would make the american right tremble etc, I think we really should start saying EU right and left or US right.

They are not and never will be the same aslong as the main policy is socialism-ish.

I didn't take the "beating your wife" question personally. But, like the Philby question, it's pointless. If someone is beating their wife they would deny it and if they weren't they would deny it.

And what is the point of viewing French politics from the US pov if you end up with all the parties being leftists? Sort of defeats the idea of left and right doesn't it. Are you saying that Europe is entirely leftist? If not, what proportion isn't (should be roughly 50-50)? Which are the leftist and rightist parties in France?

I am not saying that you should view it from their point of view, I am saying that your version of right is waaaaaay of the americans notion of right.
The american right views the EU in extreme left/left/centre, we have no real ”right” as they do, not a single country advocates for a small government, we are ruled by the government, our systems work hand in hand with some variation of socialism etc.

And yes, I would say the EU is 95% leftism.
Gal 2:20: I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

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Re: Using the Bible as a debating tool in RFF
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2019, 08:09:44 am »
One difference between the left and the right is that the former is more salty than the latter.

Being in the EU I have to concur with TheCross that it is leftist by American standards. There is no ''right'' in the EU, unless you want to call any objection to EU policies as ''right''. In that regard, most eastern european countries are ''right'' because they object to EU policies much more than western european countries on issues such as abortion, migration, homosexuality, and such. It may have something to do with their Catholic/Orthodox upbringing that makes eastern european countries distrustful of communism, socialism, nazism and other isms.
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. - Psalm 19:1

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Wretch

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Re: Using the Bible as a debating tool in RFF
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2019, 04:20:11 pm »
Brother Lapwin,

The sermon on the mount was given to a multitude, yeah? 

Regardless, Christ's admonition to "judge not, lest you be judged likewise" is about not being a hypocrite, figuratively speaking to take the plank from your own eye before trying to remove the splinter from your brother's eye.  The point concerns judging sinful behavior, yeah, literally acting as accuser and judge and finding the accused guilty. 

When evaluating what charity to support, I'm not "judging" anyone in that respect, not accusing anyone concerning sinful behavior and in a way that might be hypocritical of me; I'm just discerning which charity most warrants my support.  Yeah?

We're talking about two different meanings of the word "judge", yeah? 


As for left and right, I think my sense of it holds for EU or USA.  Le Pen is more on the right if she opposes a big authoritative EU govt in favor of nation-state sovereignty. 

To be on the Rights is to support more limited central government, and the defense of unalienable rights, to view people as ends in and of themselves rather than the means for achieving some collective good.

To be on the Left is to support more powerful authoritative central government that decides what rights people may have, to view people as a means towards achieving some collective good.

So left is pro-powerful authoritative EU govt, less nation-state, less local,

It's the same for America, the left is pro-powerful federal authority and power.


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lapwing

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Re: Using the Bible as a debating tool in RFF
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2019, 12:19:16 pm »
I mean, sure.

The ”beating your wife” is misunderstood from your angle, as this is a thought provoking question to ask that is perfectly valid, you should not take it personally.

Marine le pen is, to the american(and I assume Wretch is) a leftist.
She supports socialistic policies, speaks of bigger government in areas that would make the american right tremble etc, I think we really should start saying EU right and left or US right.

They are not and never will be the same aslong as the main policy is socialism-ish.

I didn't take the "beating your wife" question personally. But, like the Philby question, it's pointless. If someone is beating their wife they would deny it and if they weren't they would deny it.

And what is the point of viewing French politics from the US pov if you end up with all the parties being leftists? Sort of defeats the idea of left and right doesn't it. Are you saying that Europe is entirely leftist? If not, what proportion isn't (should be roughly 50-50)? Which are the leftist and rightist parties in France?

I am not saying that you should view it from their point of view, I am saying that your version of right is waaaaaay of the americans notion of right.
The american right views the EU in extreme left/left/centre, we have no real ”right” as they do, not a single country advocates for a small government, we are ruled by the government, our systems work hand in hand with some variation of socialism etc.

And yes, I would say the EU is 95% leftism.

Given that Europe has many countries and the US is just one country doesn't that mean the US is in the small minority. Has it occurred to you the US may be in the wrong?

For by one sacrifice Jesus has made perfect forever those who are being sanctified.

"Those who are still afraid of men have no fear of God, and those who have fear of God have ceased to be afraid of men"
"If the world refuses justice, the Christian will pursue mercy"
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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lapwing

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Re: Using the Bible as a debating tool in RFF
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2019, 12:26:21 pm »
One difference between the left and the right is that the former is more salty than the latter.

Being in the EU I have to concur with TheCross that it is leftist by American standards. There is no ''right'' in the EU, unless you want to call any objection to EU policies as ''right''. In that regard, most eastern european countries are ''right'' because they object to EU policies much more than western european countries on issues such as abortion, migration, homosexuality, and such. It may have something to do with their Catholic/Orthodox upbringing that makes eastern european countries distrustful of communism, socialism, nazism and other isms.

Issues such as abortion and homosexuality are treated as matters of conscience: not left v right. MPs are not whipped (ordered) to vote on these matters by their parties. There are catholic countries in western Europe e.g. Italy, Spain, Portugal
For by one sacrifice Jesus has made perfect forever those who are being sanctified.

"Those who are still afraid of men have no fear of God, and those who have fear of God have ceased to be afraid of men"
"If the world refuses justice, the Christian will pursue mercy"
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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lapwing

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Re: Using the Bible as a debating tool in RFF
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2019, 02:22:50 pm »
Brother Wretch, (note I at least bother to spell your name correctly)

(Don't worry I know your offers of friendship depend on me (and other people) agreeing with you)

When Jesus saw the crowds, He went up on the mountain and sat down. His disciples came to Him, 2and He began to teach them, saying:

So we know Jesus taught the disciples and possibly the crowds. But this is off the point. We know Jesus told the disciples to:Do not judge, or you will be judged. AND in the same gospel you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel using the same Gk word for "judge"

and of course you resolutely refuse to engage with this point as you have so often refused to engage properly in the past. I often think you would better off creating your own forum where you could continually agree with yourself like the proverbial billiard-sharp with the twisted cue - in your case twisted logic!

So are you contending judging "sinful behaviour" doesn't involve discernment?

Remember Im not saying BS should go to hell, just making an observation of his character as I discerned it.


Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

Get behind me, Satan!" he said. "You do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns

Then Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked straight at Elymas and said, 10“You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord? 11Now the hand of the Lord is against you. You are going to be blind for a time, not even able to see the light of the sun.”

Barnabas wanted to take John, also called Mark, with them, 38but Paul did not think it wise to take him, because he had deserted them in Pamphylia and had not continued with them in the work. 39They had such a sharp disagreement that they parted company. Barnabas took Mark and sailed for Cyprus, 40but Paul chose Silas and left, commended by the believers to the grace of the Lord. 41He went through Syria and Cilicia, strengthening the churches.


Wasn't Paul making a judgment about the characters of Mark and Silas?

Are you going to engage with these other scriptures now that you've forced me to shame you into doing so?




For by one sacrifice Jesus has made perfect forever those who are being sanctified.

"Those who are still afraid of men have no fear of God, and those who have fear of God have ceased to be afraid of men"
"If the world refuses justice, the Christian will pursue mercy"
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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Trinity

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Re: Using the Bible as a debating tool in RFF
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2019, 02:36:31 pm »
One difference between the left and the right is that the former is more salty than the latter.

Being in the EU I have to concur with TheCross that it is leftist by American standards. There is no ''right'' in the EU, unless you want to call any objection to EU policies as ''right''. In that regard, most eastern european countries are ''right'' because they object to EU policies much more than western european countries on issues such as abortion, migration, homosexuality, and such. It may have something to do with their Catholic/Orthodox upbringing that makes eastern european countries distrustful of communism, socialism, nazism and other isms.

Issues such as abortion and homosexuality are treated as matters of conscience: not left v right. MPs are not whipped (ordered) to vote on these matters by their parties. There are catholic countries in western Europe e.g. Italy, Spain, Portugal

The World Bank doesn't seem to treat abortion and homosexuality as matters of conscience.

World Bank Freezes Loan To Uganda For Not Allowing Homosexuality
https://www.africanglobe.net/africa/world-bank-freezes-loans-uganda-allowing-homosexuality/
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. - Psalm 19:1