Wretch

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There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« on: August 07, 2019, 02:02:45 pm »
What If A) There Is No Climate Crisis, & B) The Proposed Solutions Are Harmful?

1) How would you know either?

2) What should you do?

If there is no climate crisis, let alone a man-made climate crisis, then proposed solutions may well cause massive undue suffering and hardship for people the world over.  Precluding the use of fossil fuels precludes developing nations the benefits of inexpensive energy and all that it entails, including vastly improved living conditions, health, and prosperity.  Neither wind not solar are sufficient or sustainable on their own, nor suitable in all locations, and they require 100% back-up by reliable on-call energy sources, typically either nuclear or fossil fuel.  Developing such a dual energy generation capacity is prohibitively expensive, especially for developing nations.  All that capital if put to productive use would benefit people rather than go to waste. 

Here's a peer-reviewed paper from the journal "Science and Education" that looks at the state of climate science and its subversion towards presupposed conclusions and anti-scientific "reasoning" aka misinformation:

Climate Consensus and ‘Misinformation’ (Science and Education, 2015)

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Wretch

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2019, 02:16:32 pm »
How misinformation is sold to a trusting/unsuspecting public...

Washingtom Post Lies About Skeptical Climate Scientist To Smear His Reputation


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kurros

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2019, 03:02:54 pm »
Is anyone actually interested in this nonsense? I certainly am not. Your OP question could have been an interesting philosophical discussion, but you instantly derailed it into climate denialism lunacy.

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Trinity

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2019, 03:12:16 pm »
Is anyone actually interested in this nonsense? I certainly am not. Your OP question could have been an interesting philosophical discussion, but you instantly derailed it into climate denialism lunacy.

Is ''climate change denialism'' supposed to be an argument? No one is denying climate change, what people are questioning is the supposed ''crisis'' that is perpetuated by climate change religionists.

Is climate change real? Sure, climate change is a truism.
Is climate change a crisis? It is not, never was and never will be.
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. - Psalm 19:1

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Fred

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2019, 03:17:19 pm »
What If A) There Is No Climate Crisis, & B) The Proposed Solutions Are Harmful?

1) How would you know either?

2) What should you do?

If there is no climate crisis, let alone a man-made climate crisis, then proposed solutions may well cause massive undue suffering and hardship for people the world over.
We can't act on knowledge that we lack, and we cannot know that there is no climate crisis (even if that is the case).  We can only act on our beliefs, and part of this action should include validating beliefs - increasing our confidence in them, or increasing our doubt. 

Even if there is a true climate crisis that can be significantly alleviated by diminishing carbon emissions, the economic impact should be considered. There is always more than one way forward, so we should seek to optimize progress toward objectives with least pain. 

 




 

Fred

5

Tom Paine

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2019, 03:48:11 pm »
What If A) There Is No Climate Crisis, & B) The Proposed Solutions Are Harmful?

1) How would you know either?

2) What should you do?

If there is no climate crisis, let alone a man-made climate crisis, then proposed solutions may well cause massive undue suffering and hardship for people the world over.  Precluding the use of fossil fuels precludes developing nations the benefits of inexpensive energy and all that it entails, including vastly improved living conditions, health, and prosperity.  Neither wind not solar are sufficient or sustainable on their own, nor suitable in all locations, and they require 100% back-up by reliable on-call energy sources, typically either nuclear or fossil fuel.  Developing such a dual energy generation capacity is prohibitively expensive, especially for developing nations.  All that capital if put to productive use would benefit people rather than go to waste. 

Here's a peer-reviewed paper from the journal "Science and Education" that looks at the state of climate science and its subversion towards presupposed conclusions and anti-scientific "reasoning" aka misinformation:

Climate Consensus and ‘Misinformation’ (Science and Education, 2015)

Why, yes, look at all the benefit burning fossil fuels is having on the Chinese. There are lots of good reasons for moving away from a fossil fuel driven economy.

https://www.ft.com/content/a1062e0e-3255-11e8-b5bf-23cb17fd1498

Oh, yeah, that and anthropomorphic climate change is a thing. 

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Trinity

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2019, 04:02:29 pm »
Tom,

There are lots of good reasons not to move away from a fuel driven economy. That is like saying, blue blood is better than red blood, so let's move away from red blood.

Well no, we have to do with what we have, not with what we don't have. We can't move away from red blood, or a fuel driven economy. Fuel represents the blood of the economy, and people represent the heart pumping it around. Are there better fuel or energy out there, better ''blood''? Perhaps, but most of them are not feasible at this point in time.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2019, 04:11:57 pm by Trinity »
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. - Psalm 19:1

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Wretch

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2019, 04:03:52 pm »
What If A) There Is No Climate Crisis, & B) The Proposed Solutions Are Harmful?

1) How would you know either?

2) What should you do?

If there is no climate crisis, let alone a man-made climate crisis, then proposed solutions may well cause massive undue suffering and hardship for people the world over.
We can't act on knowledge that we lack, and we cannot know that there is no climate crisis (even if that is the case).  We can only act on our beliefs, and part of this action should include validating beliefs - increasing our confidence in them, or increasing our doubt. 

Even if there is a true climate crisis that can be significantly alleviated by diminishing carbon emissions, the economic impact should be considered. There is always more than one way forward, so we should seek to optimize progress toward objectives with least pain. 

 

Stop being so sensible!    France has proved the efficacy and safety of modern nuclear power.  Why aren't we embracing that?  Answer: Fearmongering based on problems with half century old or older nuke plants. 

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Trinity

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2019, 04:08:57 pm »
Nuclear is the future. It would be good to see a future where economies are driven by clean, cheap nuclear energy. But fear mongering prevents much of this, unfortunately.
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. - Psalm 19:1

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Soren

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2019, 04:11:19 pm »
Is anyone actually interested in this nonsense? I certainly am not. Your OP question could have been an interesting philosophical discussion, but you instantly derailed it into climate denialism lunacy.
In two of the threads at the top of the page, we've got Wretch denying human-induced climate change -- questioning even the consensus among researchers on the topic, which is objectively true even if you question whether they're right or not -- and Trinity questioning the expanding universe. This forum is becoming a haven for conspiracy theory nuts and science deniers. I don't know which is worse, that Wretch claims to have some sort of science education, which makes me depressed about the state of our educational system, or that Trinity spams the board with comments about scientific fields he clearly knows nothing about and has zero education in.

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Wretch

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2019, 04:12:04 pm »
Tom,

Don't confuse the climate crisis issue with actual toxic pollution issues.  American power plants burn clean.  That's a solution that has been available for some time.  China needs to get on board with curtailing toxic pollution.  Hopefully they will.  It is embarrassing for them, so it's likely they will eventually tackle that issue.  Electric cars for commuters make a lot of sense, more and more as the tech progresses.

Some warming and increased CO2 appears to be hugely beneficial for humanity.  But there's no crisis there by which governments may coopt ever more authority and ever more taxation, so few to no govt grants are written to study such a scenario.  Instead all grants are focused on pre-supposed climate crisis.  It's so corrupt.

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Trinity

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2019, 04:16:08 pm »
Is anyone actually interested in this nonsense? I certainly am not. Your OP question could have been an interesting philosophical discussion, but you instantly derailed it into climate denialism lunacy.
In two of the threads at the top of the page, we've got Wretch denying human-induced climate change -- questioning even the consensus among researchers on the topic, which is objectively true even if you question whether they're right or not -- and Trinity questioning the expanding universe. This forum is becoming a haven for conspiracy theory nuts and science deniers. I don't know which is worse, that Wretch claims to have some sort of science education, which makes me depressed about the state of our educational system, or that Trinity spams the board with comments about scientific fields he clearly knows nothing about and has zero education in.

What is worse is science being used to create despair amongst people. Weren't we supposed to be living under water by now due to the ice caps melting? The ice caps haven't melted and we aren't living under water, so stop your climate change despair and start enjoying your life.
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. - Psalm 19:1

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Wretch

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2019, 04:19:35 pm »
Is anyone actually interested in this nonsense? I certainly am not. Your OP question could have been an interesting philosophical discussion, but you instantly derailed it into climate denialism lunacy.
In two of the threads at the top of the page, we've got Wretch denying human-induced climate change -- questioning even the consensus among researchers on the topic, which is objectively true even if you question whether they're right or not -- and Trinity questioning the expanding universe. This forum is becoming a haven for conspiracy theory nuts and science deniers. I don't know which is worse, that Wretch claims to have some sort of science education, which makes me depressed about the state of our educational system, or that Trinity spams the board with comments about scientific fields he clearly knows nothing about and has zero education in.

Soren,

I firmly and unequivocally affirm that some increase in atmospheric CO2 is anthropogenic and that it affects climate.

I'm denying human caused climate crisis.

If you'll read the actual peer-reviewed scientific paper on the issue of climate consensus and misinformation, you'll be well educated and come to up understand that the consensus you imagine concerning man-made climate crisis is virtually non-existent.

Read.  Climate Consensus and ‘Misinformation’ (Science and Education, 2015)



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Soren

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2019, 04:29:11 pm »
Is anyone actually interested in this nonsense? I certainly am not. Your OP question could have been an interesting philosophical discussion, but you instantly derailed it into climate denialism lunacy.
In two of the threads at the top of the page, we've got Wretch denying human-induced climate change -- questioning even the consensus among researchers on the topic, which is objectively true even if you question whether they're right or not -- and Trinity questioning the expanding universe. This forum is becoming a haven for conspiracy theory nuts and science deniers. I don't know which is worse, that Wretch claims to have some sort of science education, which makes me depressed about the state of our educational system, or that Trinity spams the board with comments about scientific fields he clearly knows nothing about and has zero education in.

Soren,

I firmly and unequivocally affirm that some increase in atmospheric CO2 is anthropogenic and that it affects climate.

I'm denying human caused climate crisis.

If you'll read the actual peer-reviewed scientific paper on the issue of climate consensus and misinformation, you'll be well educated and come to up understand that the consensus you imagine concerning man-made climate crisis is virtually non-existent.

Read.  Climate Consensus and ‘Misinformation’ (Science and Education, 2015)
Congratulations -- you found one old article, apparently funded by the fossil fuel industry, arguing that there is no consensus on the human-induced climate change crisis (although you link only to the abstract, so you are probably making claims without even having read the article itself). We could all find literally hundreds, probably thousands of articles saying the opposite in about 30 seconds. You are of course entitled to your opinion, but given the entire weight of the expert community on one side, with you and a few folks in the fossil fuel industry's pocket on the other, I will line up with the scientific community.

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Trinity

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2019, 05:00:33 pm »
Soren,

The scientific community can't even explain the shadow of the Moon during solar eclipse, yet you expect them to explain the climate for the next hundred years?
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. - Psalm 19:1