Trinity

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2019, 04:52:50 am »
Kurros,

Climate change is a truism, you make is sound as if it is some kind of evil. Climate change is not evil and the solutions proposed are harmful. The UN and Co propose population reduction and veganism. Wake up and smell the roses, climate change is eugenics propaganda.
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. - Psalm 19:1

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TheCross

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2019, 04:56:06 am »
I never understood this debate, everyone is offering the world solutions to real or fake problems yet nobody has adressed the first problem, which is:

India and China cause 80-90% of the worlds polution(the figure varies from paper to paper that I’ve read) so how are we going to bring the worst countries to the table?

How many hundered of millions will enter poverty with the requirements promoted by the solutioners in the west?

The U.S.A's cumulative CO2 emissions are still double China's, and eight times India's. So before the U.S.A. has a leg to stand on here they will have to embark on a carbon capture program the scale of which the world has never seen.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/cumulative-co-emissions?tab=chart

Even in the annual emission figures the U.S.A. is still double India (and China only pulled into the lead in 2006)

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/annual-co2-emissions-per-country?tab=chart

And on a per-capita basis the U.S.A. is still the world leader in CO2 emissions:

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita?tab=chart

Fine, add US and nother country that has the figures.

Questions remain though.
Gal 2:20: I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

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momo34532

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2019, 05:11:41 am »
I do believe that there is a climate crisis. And it certainly would help just be eco-friendly even if you don't accept that there is such a crisis.
But i don't agree with all the protests and whatnot. For example the youth in my country are deliberately missing out on school every 2 days a week to go
on a protest march against the politicians. Threatening them with all sorts of nonsense instead of trying to actually reach out to them.
This is what i'm against. Not the initiative to at least try and fix up the mess we've made.

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Trinity

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2019, 05:17:08 am »
Momo,

Eco-friendly sounds great, but the solutions proposed are not human-friendly. There is nothing wrong with caring about the environment, but it should not come at the expense of human lives. Mark 8:36 comes to mind.
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. - Psalm 19:1

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Tom Paine

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #34 on: August 08, 2019, 12:32:02 pm »
Johan,

That is good news for babies and for the climate. No need to kill the former to save the latter.

Family planning, even that which allows for early term abortions is not "killing of babies." Family planning and access to birth control have probably prevented far more abortions than they have promoted. My great aunt was never able to have children because she was rendered sterile by a botched illegal abortion,I think it was some time in the 30's. If a legal early-term abortion  had been available from her, she might have been able to have a family. You might say she deserved it because she chose to illegally kill a "baby" which was actually just a fetus. Fair enough, I guess. It was her choice, sort of. if she had had access to a safe legal abortion, she almost certianly wouldn't have chosen an illegal one. However, I don't know the details whether she might have been forced or coerced into the sex. I don't know. She became a very conservative southern Baptist later in her life. I was really surprised when my mother told be the story of her abortion.

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Tom Paine

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #35 on: August 08, 2019, 12:36:29 pm »
Momo,

Eco-friendly sounds great, but the solutions proposed are not human-friendly. There is nothing wrong with caring about the environment, but it should not come at the expense of human lives. Mark 8:36 comes to mind.

Not caring about the environment comes at greater long-term expense to human life than caring for it ever could. It's just that environmental costs are absorbed by society rather than by the polluters. It's the polluters who put out all the false info about these things that brain wash gullible people into thinking that the costs of cleaning up are worse than the costs of continuing environmental degradation. Climate deniers are just the fossil fuel industry's useful idiots, IMO.

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Tom Paine

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #36 on: August 08, 2019, 12:41:30 pm »
Kurros,

Climate change is a truism, you make is sound as if it is some kind of evil. Climate change is not evil and the solutions proposed are harmful. The UN and Co propose population reduction and veganism. Wake up and smell the roses, climate change is eugenics propaganda.

Population control becomes "population reduction" and some how veganism is tied to eugenics? Typical propaganda. Also promoting less meat eating isn't the same as promoting veganism per se. I eat very little meat, but I'm not a vegan, and I realize as do may environmentalists that for some habitats controlled grazing for meat and dairy production is more sustainable than putting the land to the plow.

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kurros

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #37 on: August 08, 2019, 03:11:35 pm »
I never understood this debate, everyone is offering the world solutions to real or fake problems yet nobody has adressed the first problem, which is:

India and China cause 80-90% of the worlds polution(the figure varies from paper to paper that I’ve read) so how are we going to bring the worst countries to the table?

How many hundered of millions will enter poverty with the requirements promoted by the solutioners in the west?

The U.S.A's cumulative CO2 emissions are still double China's, and eight times India's. So before the U.S.A. has a leg to stand on here they will have to embark on a carbon capture program the scale of which the world has never seen.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/cumulative-co-emissions?tab=chart

Even in the annual emission figures the U.S.A. is still double India (and China only pulled into the lead in 2006)

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/annual-co2-emissions-per-country?tab=chart

And on a per-capita basis the U.S.A. is still the world leader in CO2 emissions:

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita?tab=chart

Fine, add US and nother country that has the figures.

Questions remain though.

What questions? As for poverty, I'm pretty sure that a lot more people will avoid poverty by not having to abandon their homes due to water shortages, resource wars, extreme weather events, and rising sea level than due to having to pay a few more dollars on electricity bills. The human cost of climate change is *already* high, and will only increase.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2019, 03:13:55 pm by kurros »

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kurros

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #38 on: August 08, 2019, 03:14:39 pm »
Momo,

Eco-friendly sounds great, but the solutions proposed are not human-friendly. There is nothing wrong with caring about the environment, but it should not come at the expense of human lives. Mark 8:36 comes to mind.

Not caring about the environment comes at greater long-term expense to human life than caring for it ever could. It's just that environmental costs are absorbed by society rather than by the polluters. It's the polluters who put out all the false info about these things that brain wash gullible people into thinking that the costs of cleaning up are worse than the costs of continuing environmental degradation. Climate deniers are just the fossil fuel industry's useful idiots, IMO.

Pretty much, yeah.

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Trinity

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #39 on: August 08, 2019, 05:11:50 pm »
Tom,

Abortions are traumatic experiences for women, perhaps that is one reason why your aunt became conservative later in life. Many women feel guilty about having abortions knowing that they could have kept their innocent babies and raised them with love. Sadly, women have been sold abortion as the solution to their problems, only to find out later that the solution is worse than the problem.

You keep using ''denialists'', but to my knowledge not many people have denied climate change on this forum. The denial is not with regard to climate change, but with regard to climate change being a crisis. I accept climate change, but I question the crisis. Don't be a merchant of despair, have hope. The rainbow represents hope, it is a promise that the world will not end with climate change. The rainbow is there to remind people of hope, not of despair. Doom and gloom climate change predictions are a dime a dozen, the sky is not falling and the polar caps are not melting and the waters are not rising. Don't worry about things you have no control over, Matthew 6:27.

Veganism is tied to eugenics when it is used for the purpose of population reduction. Read Margaret Sanger's letter ''The Eugenic Value of Birth Control Propaganda'' where she mentions the ''menace'' and how it is necessary to limit their fertility by sterilisation and other means. She was a eugenicist and she was not the only one to promote population reduction. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree, the UN &Co push for a meat-free diet and killing babies. Yes, they are babies and the UN wants less of them around because their agenda is eugenics driven. They do not see the Image of God in each and everyone of us, instead they see us as a menace, as pests, as vermins and parasites. They have no regard for human beings, because they have no regard for God. If you don't believe me, then read what these eugenicists say in their writings. They have contempt for human life, they consider humanity to be a mistake of nature that needs to be corrected by removing the ''defects'' from the gene pool.

Sterilization of Native American women
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterilization_of_Native_American_women

Eugenics: Compulsory Sterilization in 50 American States
https://www.uvm.edu/~lkaelber/eugenics/

Unwanted Sterilization and Eugenics Programs in the United States
http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/blog/unwanted-sterilization-and-eugenics-programs-in-the-united-states/

Because sterilisation has gained a bad reputation, and rightly so, there has been a shift towards other means of reducing the fertility of the population. Some of these include changing human diet, lowering the living wage and debasing the currency. All these things make it harder for young people to marry, start a family and support their children. The modern economy, which is a debt economy, is not designed to serve the people, rather it is designed so that the people serve the economy.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2019, 05:14:51 pm by Trinity »
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. - Psalm 19:1

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lapwing

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #40 on: August 08, 2019, 05:24:49 pm »
Trinity,

So you didn't bother to read my link or your own link properly else you would have seen your attempted refutation failed miserably. But you can't admit that can you. So what you do is deflect and put words in my mouth!

Quote from: Trinity
So a few years difference is all it takes to go from the ice sheets are growing to we are all going to die
Now exactly where did I write "we are all going to die"? Do you have the integrity to answer the question, Trinity?

Quote
Has it ever occurred to you that ice grows and shrinks and grows again cyclically? 
The graph in the Guardian article shows this. You didn't bother to look at the article properly did you.

This is beside the point. Wretch used the previous increase in Antarctic sea ice to argue against the existence of climate change=global warming. Now the amount has crashed did he bring this to our attention and admit he was wrong? That would be the honest brave action so obviously Wretch did not do it!

Providing the link to one Guardian article doesn't mean I support all its positions. I note you couldn't be bothered to provide references to your assertions in your response to me. Am I surprised? No I am not. So I had to go looking for them.
Having fewer children is not the same as "killing babies". You know this but you prefer to be dishonest in your statements.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2019, 05:40:22 pm by lapwing »
For by one sacrifice Jesus has made perfect forever those who are being sanctified.

"Those who are still afraid of men have no fear of God, and those who have fear of God have ceased to be afraid of men"
"If the world refuses justice, the Christian will pursue mercy"
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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Trinity

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #41 on: August 08, 2019, 06:01:08 pm »
Lapwing,

I didn't say they are the same, but the fact is that abortion results in having fewer babies. Be honest and admit that two billion babies have already been killed worldwide through abortion and the UN agenda requires even more babies to be killed to save the climate. Ice grows and shrinks cyclically, calling it a ''crash'' is scare tactic.

How many babies have to be killed to save the climate? One billion? Two billion? Three billion?
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. - Psalm 19:1

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Trinity

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #42 on: August 08, 2019, 06:12:20 pm »
It is important to understand the internal contradictions within the official narrative. On the one hand, the UN wants fewer children to save the climate, but on the other hand they want replacement migration to solve the declining population.

Replacement Migration: Is It a Solution to Declining and Ageing Populations?
https://www.un.org/en/development/desa/population/publications/ageing/replacement-migration.asp

An astute person will notice that these two policies, namely wanting fewer children and wanting replacement migration, are inconsistent with each other. What is it going to be, fewer children or replacement migration? If it is the former, then the latter cannot be had. If it is the latter, then the former cannot be had. The UN wants to have the cake and eat it too.

This proves once again Wretch's point that the proposed solutions are harmful and moreover contradictory and inconsistent.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2019, 06:29:13 pm by Trinity »
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. - Psalm 19:1

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TheCross

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #43 on: August 09, 2019, 05:30:46 am »
I never understood this debate, everyone is offering the world solutions to real or fake problems yet nobody has adressed the first problem, which is:

India and China cause 80-90% of the worlds polution(the figure varies from paper to paper that I’ve read) so how are we going to bring the worst countries to the table?

How many hundered of millions will enter poverty with the requirements promoted by the solutioners in the west?

The U.S.A's cumulative CO2 emissions are still double China's, and eight times India's. So before the U.S.A. has a leg to stand on here they will have to embark on a carbon capture program the scale of which the world has never seen.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/cumulative-co-emissions?tab=chart

Even in the annual emission figures the U.S.A. is still double India (and China only pulled into the lead in 2006)

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/annual-co2-emissions-per-country?tab=chart

And on a per-capita basis the U.S.A. is still the world leader in CO2 emissions:

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita?tab=chart

Fine, add US and nother country that has the figures.

Questions remain though.

What questions? As for poverty, I'm pretty sure that a lot more people will avoid poverty by not having to abandon their homes due to water shortages, resource wars, extreme weather events, and rising sea level than due to having to pay a few more dollars on electricity bills. The human cost of climate change is *already* high, and will only increase.

”Having to pay a FEW..”

Dude, helloooooo, wake up abit please, people do not live like you or I, yet your solutions require these people to spend money they do not have.

While we can sit in the comfort of our houses, with clean air around us, water coming straight to our our mouths, and plan about something that we decided is so important that others that live day by day ought to dedicate their non-existent resources to this very cause, is exactly what I need you to understand will never happen. Ever.

Try telling anyone living in poverty, to think for the future while their children barely are able to stay alive.
Gal 2:20: I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

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kurros

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2019, 05:46:04 am »
I never understood this debate, everyone is offering the world solutions to real or fake problems yet nobody has adressed the first problem, which is:

India and China cause 80-90% of the worlds polution(the figure varies from paper to paper that I’ve read) so how are we going to bring the worst countries to the table?

How many hundered of millions will enter poverty with the requirements promoted by the solutioners in the west?

The U.S.A's cumulative CO2 emissions are still double China's, and eight times India's. So before the U.S.A. has a leg to stand on here they will have to embark on a carbon capture program the scale of which the world has never seen.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/cumulative-co-emissions?tab=chart

Even in the annual emission figures the U.S.A. is still double India (and China only pulled into the lead in 2006)

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/annual-co2-emissions-per-country?tab=chart

And on a per-capita basis the U.S.A. is still the world leader in CO2 emissions:

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita?tab=chart

Fine, add US and nother country that has the figures.

Questions remain though.

What questions? As for poverty, I'm pretty sure that a lot more people will avoid poverty by not having to abandon their homes due to water shortages, resource wars, extreme weather events, and rising sea level than due to having to pay a few more dollars on electricity bills. The human cost of climate change is *already* high, and will only increase.

”Having to pay a FEW..”

Dude, helloooooo, wake up abit please, people do not live like you or I, yet your solutions require these people to spend money they do not have.

While we can sit in the comfort of our houses, with clean air around us, water coming straight to our our mouths, and plan about something that we decided is so important that others that live day by day ought to dedicate their non-existent resources to this very cause, is exactly what I need you to understand will never happen. Ever.

Try telling anyone living in poverty, to think for the future while their children barely are able to stay alive.

This argument makes absolutely no sense. If you really believe it then we should never spend societal resources on anything until no-one is living in poverty, which is probably never. It is also an incredibly disingenuous argument. People living in poverty have low CO2 lifestyles, so any increased costs associated with reducing CO2 emissions will be the smallest for this group of people. It is also possible to offset any costs they do see via tax breaks or handouts. People in poverty aren't paying any direct tax anyway, so the handouts can work here. For example, one suggested scheme is to implement a carbon tax scheme, with all proceeds from the tax directly returned to the general population. You can make this scheme as progressive as you like to offset any impact on the poorest in society.

To be honest this line of "oh think of the poor" from people arguing against climate action is really one of the most inane and hypocritical things I have heard in my life. The poor are the ones who will be most impacted by climate change. If you really cared about them you would argue *for* climate action, not against it.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 05:50:04 am by kurros »