Trinity

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #75 on: August 12, 2019, 03:04:59 pm »
Why think there is a climate crisis when there isn't?

Intentional gross deception.

Just one example.

There are many more examples, including within the "scientific" community.

U.N. Predicts Disaster if Global Warming Not Checked
Peter James Spielmann, June 30, 1989
https://apnews.com/bd45c372caf118ec99964ea547880cd0

Check your privilege Wretch, or else disaster is assured.
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. - Psalm 19:1

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Wretch

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #76 on: August 12, 2019, 03:05:56 pm »
In a previous thread (Stewardship of the Earth?) Wretch made a lot about the increase in Antarctic sea ice.

Well it's crashed since 2014 but I don't recall Wretch commenting on this.

Quote
'Precipitous' fall in Antarctic sea ice since 2014 revealed
Plunge is far faster than in Arctic and may lead to more global heating, say scientists

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/01/precipitous-fall-in-antarctic-sea-ice-revealed

I don't recall but methinks you exaggerate.  In responding to data-based assertions, I typically simply show actual data that tends to refute said assertions.  Please do show the data, all of it, not just that which supports one view or the other.  I'm open to all the data.  I'm pretty much wary of rhetorical and personal argumentation, which seems impossible to avoid for some folks. 

Just show the hard data and deal in logical well-reasoned analyses.  Anything else is foolishness.  Yeah?

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Wretch

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #77 on: August 12, 2019, 03:09:03 pm »
Yes, who would possibly want a sustainable clean energy grid that is based on renewable energy sources rather than a limited amount of fossil fuels ?

Who could possibly want cleaner air and less garbage and waste being created.



If a rush to force that costs/harms more than it benefits, then it's undesirable.

Are you assuming there are no costs/harm? 

See here's the thing, the transition to non-fossil fuel energy will happen on its own soon enough.

In the mean time there's no grave rush or cause for alarm.

There wouldn't have been a rush if people listened to climate scientists about 50 years ago.

There'd be no rush now or likely ever if people listened to actual scientists now, the ones actually dealing in hard scientific data in lieu of an assortment of models with presupposed climate forcing mechanisms.

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Wretch

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #78 on: August 12, 2019, 03:12:54 pm »
I never understood this debate, everyone is offering the world solutions to real or fake problems yet nobody has adressed the first problem, which is:

India and China cause 80-90% of the worlds polution(the figure varies from paper to paper that I’ve read) so how are we going to bring the worst countries to the table?

How many hundered of millions will enter poverty with the requirements promoted by the solutioners in the west?

The U.S.A's cumulative CO2 emissions are still double China's, and eight times India's. So before the U.S.A. has a leg to stand on here they will have to embark on a carbon capture program the scale of which the world has never seen.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/cumulative-co-emissions?tab=chart

Even in the annual emission figures the U.S.A. is still double India (and China only pulled into the lead in 2006)

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/annual-co2-emissions-per-country?tab=chart

And on a per-capita basis the U.S.A. is still the world leader in CO2 emissions:

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita?tab=chart

Except more atmospheric CO2 is beneficial.  More agricultural productivity, more aerable land, milder weather, fewer droughts, fewer damaging storms, fewer wild fires. 

America, greening and saving the world through fossil fueled energy might.  You're welcome. 

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Wretch

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #79 on: August 12, 2019, 03:16:17 pm »
Kurros,

Reducing CO2 emissions will negatively affect the lives of hundreds of millions of people. But climate change scientists don't care about that, because they believe that the world is overpopulated and their proposed solutions entail eugenics, namely killing babies and removing meat from the human diet.

Uh no, that is complete and utter rubbish, in both sentences. Climate change is what will negatively affect the lives of hundreds of millions of people, and they suggest things like using renewable energy, nuclear energy, replanting forests, and extracting CO2 from the atmosphere, not killing babies. As for meat, they suggest reducing it, not removing it. Which is not just good for the planet, but also health. People in the West eat a truly ridiculous amount of meat, and it is killing both them and the environment

When you make posts like that it really reduces your credibility to absolute zero.

Please show any actual scientific evidence in full global climate p-relative scale and context that increased atmospheric CO2 is causing undue harm.  Anything beyond the ludicrously abbreviated or anecdotal.  Please.  I'm beyond eager to see any such evidence. 

We're dealing in facts, yeah? 

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wonderer

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #80 on: August 12, 2019, 03:17:17 pm »
There'd be no rush now or likely ever if people listened to actual scientists now, the ones actually dealing in hard scientific data in lieu of an assortment of models with presupposed climate forcing mechanisms.

Disparaging climate modelling is simply ludicrous.  Any scientific attempt to predict the climate, decades to centuries out, is necessarily going to rely on modeling.

So where are the modelling results of these "actual scientists" and what forcing functions are they presupposing?
"The world needed that of us, to maintain—by our example, by our very existence—a world that would keep learning and questioning, that would remain free in thought, inquiry, and word." - Alice Dreger

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Wretch

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #81 on: August 12, 2019, 03:22:13 pm »
I do believe that there is a climate crisis. And it certainly would help just be eco-friendly even if you don't accept that there is such a crisis.
But i don't agree with all the protests and whatnot. For example the youth in my country are deliberately missing out on school every 2 days a week to go
on a protest march against the politicians. Threatening them with all sorts of nonsense instead of trying to actually reach out to them.
This is what i'm against. Not the initiative to at least try and fix up the mess we've made.

The young must be indoctrinated.  Hitler, Stalin, Mao and all of their ilk did so.  Beware those who follow suit.  They've ALL turned out to be similarly authoritatively minded.

"... the mess we've made."? 

What are you talking about?  Please be specific.

The planet is now more prosperous and literate than ever.  America and Europe have clean air and water, completely turning around the mess of the height of the Industrial Age. 

All the actual pollution is coming from developing nations eager to catch up to the state of the Western world.  Japan is amazing in its environmental stewardship, yet remains an industrial juggernaut.  Amazing people there.  I miss my visits.

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Wretch

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #82 on: August 12, 2019, 03:26:28 pm »
Momo,

Eco-friendly sounds great, but the solutions proposed are not human-friendly. There is nothing wrong with caring about the environment, but it should not come at the expense of human lives. Mark 8:36 comes to mind.

Not caring about the environment comes at greater long-term expense to human life than caring for it ever could. It's just that environmental costs are absorbed by society rather than by the polluters. It's the polluters who put out all the false info about these things that brain wash gullible people into thinking that the costs of cleaning up are worse than the costs of continuing environmental degradation. Climate deniers are just the fossil fuel industry's useful idiots, IMO.

Amazing. 

The magnitude of  leftist enviro and govt funding pushing the climate crisis narrative upon everyone is multiple orders of magnitude greater than any fossil fuel oriented funding, which is little to none.  You're engaging in fact denial, science denial,  and wild conspiracy theory. 

What is a "climate denier" exactly?  Please be specific. 

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Wretch

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #83 on: August 12, 2019, 03:33:06 pm »
What questions? As for poverty, I'm pretty sure that a lot more people will avoid poverty by not having to abandon their homes due to water shortages, resource wars, extreme weather events, and rising sea level than due to having to pay a few more dollars on electricity bills. The human cost of climate change is *already* high, and will only increase.

The question was towards what end if the planets leading emitters of CO2 are permitted to continue major growth in their CO2 emissions.  It was a pretty clear question I thought. 

Please show actual hard evidence supporting your wild assertions, re "extreme weather events, and rising sea level" purportedly caused by anthropogenic effects. 

Please show how increasing the cost of energy by 50% or more while still requiring fossil fuel powered standby generation for when the wind doesn't blow or the sun doesn't shine amounts to just "a few more dollars on electric bills."  You do know that the cost of energy drives the cost of virtually everything else too, no?

Maybe it's time you left academia for some real world reality.  Been there.  Done that.  Woke!

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Trinity

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #84 on: August 12, 2019, 03:34:20 pm »
So let us recap the policies and recommendations proposed by climate change cultists, I mean, scientists:

- Have fewer children, preferably none (link).

- Replace the already declining and ageing populations in western countries with migrants (link).

- Move away from meat, dairy and eggs (link). Eat GMO corn and soy instead.

- Sterilise people to save the world from overpopulation (link).

If you don't support any of the above, then you are a science denier and deserve to be mocked, I suppose.
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. - Psalm 19:1

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Wretch

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #85 on: August 12, 2019, 03:44:07 pm »

Try telling anyone living in poverty, to think for the future while their children barely are able to stay alive.
I commend you for being concerned for groups that could be negatively impacted by policy changes that are made to reduce carbon emissions.  Shouldn't this mean that these impacts should be taken into account when considering options?  Ideally, all costs and benefits should be taken into account - both short term and long term, and both at the aggregate level as well as at the level of individual socio-economic groups.  There's no reason, in principle, why these groups can't be protected with the right policies.  Given your concerns, this might be a better expenditure of your energy than trying to convince people that anthropogenic global warming is a hoax.

Anthropogenic global warming is real.

The idea that it is causing a climate crisis and so requires massive global governance/intervention is the hoax.

You know, at the turn of the 19th to the 20th century, the looming crisis was massive problems due to fecal matter collecting on the streets of places like NY and other large cities.  People were dying from the effects.  Henry Ford invented the cost effective motor coach, and others invented the means to dig deep wells and To extract highly efficient liquid energy from the ground.  What ensued was a near immediate resolution to problems of all the horse crap, and the most massive enhancement to the lives of the common man ever, and it's still happening.

The same may eventually be said for safe and cost effective nuclear power.  They're already saying it in France. 

Unfortunately, the same activists that now scream irrationally about a contrived climate crisis, were and to a large part still are the ones staunchly opposed to nuclear power.

Reality matters little to those driven by emotion.

Ask them for hard data to support their hysteria.  See what they offer... personal attack is the usual response.

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Wretch

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #86 on: August 12, 2019, 03:45:55 pm »
The real crisis is the reproducibility crisis. The climate change crisis predictions have failed, it is not even science.

It's related for sure in that Leftists crave both.  They figure poor immigrants are easier to control. 

Maybe deserving of a separate thread. 

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Trinity

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #87 on: August 12, 2019, 03:51:08 pm »
Wretch,

You keep mentioning nuclear power and it is unfortunate that it is overlooked. Emotions aside, nuclear energy is the next big thing after a fuel-based economy. Fuel-based economy was and still is necessary, but the difference with the past is that nuclear energy has come a long way to be a clean alternative to it. Assuming climate change crisis is a thing, then nuclear energy cannot be overlooked, doing so would be irrational. France doesn't overlook it, yet so many in the climate change scene have glanced over it at best and condemned it at worst. There is no reason anymore to shun away from nuclear energy, it is the future, and in case of France, it is the present.
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. - Psalm 19:1

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Trinity

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #88 on: August 12, 2019, 04:05:38 pm »
Galen Winsor: The Nuclear Scare Scam
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMqHTbXm3rss

I wonder what uranium tastes like.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 04:07:33 pm by Trinity »
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. - Psalm 19:1

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Wretch

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Re: There Is No Climate Crisis, & Proposed Solutions Are Harmful
« Reply #89 on: August 12, 2019, 04:07:13 pm »
There'd be no rush now or likely ever if people listened to actual scientists now, the ones actually dealing in hard scientific data in lieu of an assortment of models with presupposed climate forcing mechanisms.

Disparaging climate modelling is simply ludicrous.  Any scientific attempt to predict the climate, decades to centuries out, is necessarily going to rely on modeling.

So where are the modelling results of these "actual scientists" and what forcing functions are they presupposing?

Models are tools that once proved accurate are valuable for some level of cautious and properly limited predictions.  This hold in any field.

Models that are [edit] unproven or worse, proved failures must never be characterized or used as reliable simulations of reality.

It's that simple.  I'm intimately familiar with complex computer models/simulations.  I've created and seen other models massively less complex as global circulation/climate models (GCMs) that dealt with far better known phenomenon and regimes of applicable physical influence, and those models sometimes required dozens and dozens of revisions, sometimes major mechanistic revisions, before becoming reliable enough to trust as accurate simulators of reality.  We're talking massive investments in time and money in private industry.  How did we know the models were trustworthy?  When their results corresponded closely to experimental observation. 

If you think there is a climate model that is adequately proofed and scientifically/statistically justified for use in predicting future climate, please do point it out.  I'm eager to see it.  I've been looking for such a model.  What you find are spaghetti graphs and rhetoric, no honest model evaluations relative to reality.  No actual science, just scare-mongering and politics.

Actual credible scientists scoff at the use of climate models as if they are reality simulators that may be trusted to drive policy.

Shall we look at some actual hard data?

« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 02:17:58 pm by Wretch »