OrthodoxJew

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Deuteronomy 13 vs. The Resurrection
« on: September 01, 2019, 10:00:22 am »
The following is written from an Orthodox Jewish perspective.

 Let's assume for the moment that WLC is correct in his assessment
of the historicity of the resurrection and Jesus was in fact raised from the dead. Even so we must consider the verses of Deuteronomy 13:2-5

The verses read as follows:

"If there appears among you a prophet or a dream-diviner and he gives you a sign or a portent, saying, “Let us follow and worship another god”—whom you have not experienced—even if the sign or portent that he named to you comes true, do not heed the words of that prophet or that dream-diviner. For the LORD your God is testing you to see whether you really love the LORD your God with all your heart and soul. Follow none but the LORD your God, and revere none but Him; observe His commandments alone, and heed only His orders; worship none but Him, and hold fast to Him."

God clearly instructs us that even if a miracle is performed which seems to substantiate the claims of a prophet, we are not to take this as a sign that God wants us to worship another god. God is testing us to see if we truly love Him with all our hearts. So, even if Jesus were to resurrect himself in front of our eyes, still this cannot serve as a sign that we are to worship him. Since he is not the one who was revealed to the Jewish people at Sinai, then he is "another god", all his claims to the contrary notwithstanding. So the entire claim of the resurrection, even if it could be backed by solid evidence, does not have the strength to prove the veracity of any brand of trinitarian Christianity.

Thank you for reading!

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jayceeii

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Re: Deuteronomy 13 vs. The Resurrection
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2019, 02:07:33 pm »
oj: The following is written from an Orthodox Jewish perspective.

jc: I suppose this is unchanged from Jesus’ day. It is presumed the parents are wise, and the children do not think further.

oj: Let's assume for the moment that WLC is correct in his assessment of the historicity of the resurrection and Jesus was in fact raised from the dead.

jc: It’s more interesting if he’s incorrect, since it means the Christians have no leverage against the Jews, but let’s assume.

oj: Even so we must consider the verses of Deuteronomy 13:2-5. The verses read as follows:

jc: Some ancient guy wrote something down. Yet his authority, intended audience, and even message is unclear. Both Jews and Christians accept a poetic sound, as authority enough.

oj: "If there appears among you a prophet or a dream-diviner and he gives you a sign or a portent, saying, “Let us follow and worship another god”—whom you have not experienced—even if the sign or portent that he named to you comes true, do not heed the words of that prophet or that dream-diviner.

jc: It baffles me that Jews and Christians continue to expect signs and portents in the modern age, where none have been proved. They have minds that can use the technology of a cell phone, but minds that remain childishly simplistic in expecting miracles any day. It’s curious too the success of the verse depends on the reader having experience of God. I find no one following God’s ways, and I also find God did not declare His ways in the Bible, which contains instead reinforcement of the usual human conclusions. In my opinion no creature can have experience of God, and what people are mistaking for God are minor mental experiences. But if you have experience of God, tell us the causes of and cures for war and poverty. That should be easy. That’d be a primary concern of God.

oj: For the LORD your God is testing you to see whether you really love the LORD your God with all your heart and soul.

jc: I see a claim is being made that the creatures can have direct experience of God, and this is a typical claim of all the religionists, East and West, Hindus, Jews and Christians alike. All say, “My God tells me what I want to hear,” although wars still result from this. Most importantly, were any particular religion having authentic experience of God, there should be no factions and no strife, but we all know every major religion is loaded with strife. Of course each faction is then claiming it alone has direct experience of God, but then you can look within the factions to see there isn’t real accord of a harmonious world.

oj: Follow none but the LORD your God, and revere none but Him; observe His commandments alone, and heed only His orders; worship none but Him, and hold fast to Him."

jc: You can even look within the family, where the wife and husband both say, “We have direct experience of God, and then we quarrel like banshees.” The wife is sure God is with her, the husband that God is with him, but neither notices God would dislike quarrels. The funny thing about this verse is that it would work, could the reader actually look at God, and had God given authentic guidance in the Bible. Both are quite false.

oj: God clearly instructs us that even if a miracle is performed which seems to substantiate the claims of a prophet, we are not to take this as a sign that God wants us to worship another god.

jc: This is quite handy, because no one can perform miracles, even Jesus. So, the verse is empty since the situation can never arise. The only situation that can arise is hearing others speak about miracles they have seen, as rumors get started among the ignorant.

oj: God is testing us to see if we truly love Him with all our hearts.

jc: Again, I’d dispute that any religionist is pointed at God, when he says, “God.” Each man constructs a mental idol of a being he presumes will agree with his selfish conclusions.

oj: So, even if Jesus were to resurrect himself in front of our eyes, still this cannot serve as a sign that we are to worship him.

jc: It’s again empty, not a situation that can happen. God may be twirling the planet on His fingertip, but who could perceive that? Christians stand in their myths, not with Jesus.

oj: Since he is not the one who was revealed to the Jewish people at Sinai, then he is "another god", all his claims to the contrary notwithstanding.

jc: An interesting question is whether if someone could give better commandments than Moses, i.e. very obviously more likely to be from the Living God, the Jews would listen.

oj: So the entire claim of the resurrection, even if it could be backed by solid evidence, does not have the strength to prove the veracity of any brand of trinitarian Christianity.

jc: The Christians admit if the resurrection didn’t happen their religion is null and void, and this is a more relevant angle of attack. Perhaps Jesus was God, but His presence and voice did not matter to them. In any case the people have never been brought to religion by arguments. The fact is they do not really care if they are saved, or have a soul, or not.

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Sanoy

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Re: Deuteronomy 13 vs. The Resurrection
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2019, 02:33:52 pm »
Jesus wasn't another G-d, He was someone you are already familiar with because Jesus is in the Old Testament. Lets take a look at a few verses.

 + Genesis 48:15-16 "And he blessed Joseph and said,
“The God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked,
the God who has been my shepherd all my life long to this day,
16the angel who has redeemed me from all evil, bless the boys;
 - The part underlined is actually singular, "May He bless the boys" and not "they".

 + Genesis 19:24 "Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the LORD out of heaven."
 - One LORD has the mark of the accusative, the other LORD does not. This is This is one LORD doing something from a distinctly different LORD. (This is very different than examples where a name is    used twice in the Old testament, like that of Solomon. Such examples don't use the mark of the accusative)


 + Zechariah 3:2 "And the Lord said to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you, O Satan! The Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you!"
 - One LORD is calling upon another LORD rather than himself to rebuke satan. We see this same structure in "The Assumption of Moses" text, (via Jude for the lost sections) where Michael calls upon a greater power to rebuke satan.


 + 1 Samuel 3:21 "And the LORD appeared again at Shiloh, for the LORD revealed himself to Samuel at Shiloh by the word of the LORD."
 - You might recognize this in Jewish discussions of the "Memra". The "Word of the LORD" is an appearance, and it is a person because the Word of the LORD stands by Samuel in v10. Also Genesis 15:1. Jesus is called "The Word" in John 1.


 + Judges 6:22-23 "Then Gideon perceived that he was the angel of the Lord. And Gideon said, “Alas, O Lord God! For now I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face.” 23But the Lord said to him, “Peace be to you. Do not fear; you shall not die.”
 - Here Gideon sees the face of THE angel of the LORD as identical with seeing the face of The LORD which Moses could not see. Gideon is expecting to die, but the condition of seeing The LORD face to face is not met here. Nor is it met for Abraham in Genesis 18.



Ancient Israelites believed in two powers in heaven, the roots of that belief are still there in the Old Testament.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2019, 09:32:23 am by Sanoy »

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jayceeii

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Re: Deuteronomy 13 vs. The Resurrection
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2019, 05:10:20 pm »
Jesus wasn't another G-d, He was someone you are already familiar with because Jesus is in the Old Testament. Lets take a look at a few verses.

 + Genesis 48:15-16 "And he blessed Joseph and said, “The God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked, the God who has been my shepherd all my life long to this day, 16the angel who has redeemed me from all evil, bless the boys;
 - The part underlined is actually singular, "May He bless the boys" and not "they".

 + Genesis 19:24 "Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the LORD out of heaven."
 - One LORD has the mark of the accusative. This is The LORD doing something from The LORD. (This is very different than examples where a name is    used twice in the Old testament, like that of Solomon. Such examples don't use the mark of the accusative)

 + Zechariah 3:2 "And the Lord said to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you, O Satan! The Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you!"
 - One LORD is calling upon another LORD rather than himself to rebuke satan. We see this same structure in "The Assumption of Moses" text, (via Jude for the lost sections) where Michael calls upon a greater power to rebuke satan.

 + 1 Samuel 3:21 "And the LORD appeared again at Shiloh, for the LORD revealed himself to Samuel at Shiloh by the word of the LORD."
 - You might recognize this in Jewish discussions of the "Memra". The "Word of the LORD" is an appearance, and it is a person because the Word of the LORD stands by Samuel in v10. Also Genesis 15:1

 + Judges 6:22-23 "Then Gideon perceived that he was the angel of the Lord. And Gideon said, “Alas, O Lord God! For now I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face.” 23But the Lord said to him, “Peace be to you. Do not fear; you shall not die.”
 - Here Gideon sees the face of THE angel of the LORD as identical with seeing the face of The LORD which Moses could not see. Gideon is expecting to die, but the condition of seeing The LORD face to face is not met here. Nor is it met for Abraham in Genesis 18.

Ancient Israelites believed in two powers in heaven, the roots of that belief are still there in the Old Testament.
sn: Jesus wasn't another G-d, He was someone you are already familiar with because Jesus is in the Old Testament. Lets take a look at a few verses.

jc: I took the point of OrthodoxJew to be to doubt there is a connection between the God who supposedly appeared on Mt. Sinai and Jesus. Of course Christians presume there is a connection, hypothesizing there is an Invisible Father and an visible Son, and further an invisible Holy Spirit that visits their minds and answers their prayers, etc. Yet Jesus also said no man comes to the Father but through Him, which rules out the chance of an encounter between the Invisible God and a creature, as the account of Mt. Sinai suggests. I’d submit further that the Ten Commandments are so ridiculously shallow and worthless that the account of Mt. Sinai is almost certainly bogus, and Jesus’ statement is accurate.

sn: Genesis 48:15-16 "And he blessed Joseph and said, “The God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked,

jc: Here is a presumption the Invisible God is experienced by men, but all religionists are convinced God walks with them, including Hindus. Nor can any religionist today prove that God walks with him, nor does any religionist exhibit attributes that would please God. If God is experienced one would expect divine properties or decisions, never seen.

sn: the God who has been my shepherd all my life long to this day,

jc: This appears to reflect the Christian view the Holy Spirit monitors and adjusts their minds. All of them claim God is guiding them, any strife arising proving this is not so.

sn: the angel who has redeemed me from all evil, bless the boys;
 - The part underlined is actually singular, "May He bless the boys" and not "they".

jc: Your argument appears to be this “angel” is Jesus, yet this leaves no room for actual angels. The Lord is the Creator of Heaven and Earth, the angels presumably in Heaven.

sn: Genesis 19:24 "Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the LORD out of heaven."
 - One LORD has the mark of the accusative. This is The LORD doing something from The LORD. (This is very different than examples where a name is    used twice in the Old testament, like that of Solomon. Such examples don't use the mark of the accusative)

jc: You place a lot of emphasis on the exact wording of an ancient poem, without much of a practical application to the real world today. We won’t see sulfur and fire raining down on Earth or any other planet, except from volcanoes or other natural phenomena. If you believe in this event, your mind is prone to fantasy, and yet you do not fear an actual Judgment that may be coming for important causes. The God of the Old Testament is credited with many miracles never seen since then, and nobody asks why He has not continued such interventions, for instanced to stop WWII or other travesties of humanity.

sn: Zechariah 3:2 "And the Lord said to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you, O Satan! The Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you!"
 - One LORD is calling upon another LORD rather than himself to rebuke satan. We see this same structure in "The Assumption of Moses" text, (via Jude for the lost sections) where Michael calls upon a greater power to rebuke satan.

jc: You’re a believer in Satan, pegging you as individual unable to see the true evil in actual humans or its cause. You also think God is a fool, to create an actual Opponent. You probably use a cell phone and other advanced technology, but your mind is steeped in weird superstitions derived from ancient superstitious poems. It’s quite amazing to me.

sn: 1 Samuel 3:21 "And the LORD appeared again at Shiloh, for the LORD revealed himself to Samuel at Shiloh by the word of the LORD."

jc: Yes, here’s another place in the Old Testament where it is claimed humans can have experience of the Invisible God, that I say Jesus countermanded. If there is experience of the Invisible God, virtue or at least divine decisions should result, but these are not seen. Claims of God-experience swamp every religion, for instance Hindus claim union with God. Other humans, unable to discriminate the divine, accept and perpetuate the claims.

sn: You might recognize this in Jewish discussions of the "Memra". The "Word of the LORD" is an appearance, and it is a person because the Word of the LORD stands by Samuel in v10. Also Genesis 15:1

jc: The Lord can speak or give the Word of God from embodiment, but very little else.

sn: Judges 6:22-23 "Then Gideon perceived that he was the angel of the Lord. And Gideon said, “Alas, O Lord God! For now I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face.” 23But the Lord said to him, “Peace be to you. Do not fear; you shall not die.”
 - Here Gideon sees the face of THE angel of the LORD as identical with seeing the face of The LORD which Moses could not see. Gideon is expecting to die, but the condition of seeing The LORD face to face is not met here. Nor is it met for Abraham in Genesis 18.

jc: This appears to Gideon citing the voice of conscience and claiming this to be God, as every Christian and Jew does today. Your argument by contrast is that this angel of the Lord is Jesus, but in any case the author of the poem did not tell us and you are guessing. The passage is not much different from claims to samadhi states one finds in the East, where sages say they are overwhelmed by the power and purity of the Self they find within. Nonetheless, neither from the East nor the West are any pure, powerful people.

sn: Ancient Israelites believed in two powers in heaven, the roots of that belief are still there in the Old Testament.

jc: Do you believe you have a chance of convincing OrthodoxJew? I’m curious how you are predicting he’ll react, because I’d predict you have no chance and that he will deny your arguments. One thing missing in this forum is people being persuaded, and it amounts to evidence men aren’t rising to sufficient logic or philosophy. The words are there, but not the impact. To me your argument smacks of a word game, as you’re splitting hairs without the prophets here to question, and where they spoke very vaguely.

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OrthodoxJew

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Re: Deuteronomy 13 vs. The Resurrection
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2019, 11:22:45 am »
@Jayceil If you are going to engage in this topic at least take him at his religious beliefs otherwise there is no point. To your comment on "convicing" someone, thats not a failing in an argument. Just because it won't cause the other to change it isn't a reason to ignore dialogue.

@Sanoy Those quotes are literally cringeworthy. A better answer would be that the Jews ahd no concept of the trinity and God only revealed it later on.

Any why this conversation is discussed at length here: https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/72367/resurrection-and-deuteronomy-13

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Sanoy

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Re: Deuteronomy 13 vs. The Resurrection
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2019, 02:14:33 pm »

sn: Jesus wasn't another G-d, He was someone you are already familiar with because Jesus is in the Old Testament. Lets take a look at a few verses.

jc: I took the point of OrthodoxJew to be to doubt there is a connection between the God who supposedly appeared on Mt. Sinai and Jesus. Of course Christians presume there is a connection, hypothesizing there is an Invisible Father and an visible Son, and further an invisible Holy Spirit that visits their minds and answers their prayers, etc. Yet Jesus also said no man comes to the Father but through Him, which rules out the chance of an encounter between the Invisible God and a creature, as the account of Mt. Sinai suggests. I’d submit further that the Ten Commandments are so ridiculously shallow and worthless that the account of Mt. Sinai is almost certainly bogus, and Jesus’ statement is accurate.

I will respond to the points that are on topic.

Hashem visible (Jesus) and Hashem invisible is the proper distinction so I will use those terms. It is Hashem invisible which one will die if seen face to face.

The word Angel means messenger. There are humans in the OT called Angels.

I can see nothing in Genesis 19 to indicate it is of poetic genre.

 - I thought it would be worthwhile to sift through this for the stuff on topic, but I stopped reading at the point where you started talking about what you think is wrong with my mind. I am confident that I will not find this exchange worthwhile and so I will end it here.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 02:17:58 pm by Sanoy »

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jayceeii

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Re: Deuteronomy 13 vs. The Resurrection
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2019, 03:55:59 pm »

sn: Jesus wasn't another G-d, He was someone you are already familiar with because Jesus is in the Old Testament. Lets take a look at a few verses.

jc: I took the point of OrthodoxJew to be to doubt there is a connection between the God who supposedly appeared on Mt. Sinai and Jesus. Of course Christians presume there is a connection, hypothesizing there is an Invisible Father and an visible Son, and further an invisible Holy Spirit that visits their minds and answers their prayers, etc. Yet Jesus also said no man comes to the Father but through Him, which rules out the chance of an encounter between the Invisible God and a creature, as the account of Mt. Sinai suggests. I’d submit further that the Ten Commandments are so ridiculously shallow and worthless that the account of Mt. Sinai is almost certainly bogus, and Jesus’ statement is accurate.

I will respond to the points that are on topic.

Hashem visible (Jesus) and Hashem invisible is the proper distinction so I will use those terms. It is Hashem invisible which one will die if seen face to face.

The word Angel means messenger. There are humans in the OT called Angels.

I can see nothing in Genesis 19 to indicate it is of poetic genre.

 - I thought it would be worthwhile to sift through this for the stuff on topic, but I stopped reading at the point where you started talking about what you think is wrong with my mind. I am confident that I will not find this exchange worthwhile and so I will end it here.
sn: I will respond to the points that are on topic.

jc: Yes, let us not spend too much time on something, as if it were truly important. That might involve an interaction in depths, but who can pay attention for long?

sn: Hashem visible (Jesus) and Hashem invisible is the proper distinction so I will use those terms. It is Hashem invisible which one will die if seen face to face.

jc: I do dispute this point. Jesus said no one goes to the Father, except through Him. The angels also don’t see the Invisible God directly. There is no interface. Perhaps you wouldn’t die meeting God, but would hate His virtue and awareness. An interesting question is if you see the Holy Spirit’s hands upon your mind, as all Christians claim the Holy Spirit or Comforter enters them to guide their steps.

sn: The word Angel means messenger. There are humans in the OT called Angels.

jc: I had heard the angels were a separately created race. You run into a problem if there are no angels, i.e. actually higher entities. You’d remain as you are forever, experiencing no greater joys, no greater mental powers, and no true self-awareness. Obviously you are happy just as you are, and long for no higher states.

sn: I can see nothing in Genesis 19 to indicate it is of poetic genre.

jc: Again, you don’t want to talk in depth, not feeling true interest in the subject, so I won’t say much. The entire Old Testament can be called poetry, and rather bad poetry at that. It’s filled with analogy and metaphor, lacking substantive text. You seem to be thinking shallowly about poetry, as mere rhyming. I mean that none of the text points to real things, instead to poetic imagery, of limited value.

sn: - I thought it would be worthwhile to sift through this for the stuff on topic, but I stopped reading at the point where you started talking about what you think is wrong with my mind.

jc: I see you are not in a position to defend your mental capacities, but this is the usual human state. You have no knowledge about knowledge, or crave this either.

sn: I am confident that I will not find this exchange worthwhile and so I will end it here.

jc: As I expected. I make no claim to be a prophet, but you demonstrate how it is literally impossible for a prophet to get started among humans. You read the ancient scriptures where supposedly Jeremiah and Isaiah were received, but would categorically deny anyone claiming authority today, which is the reason the Christians have been utterly without prophets in properly recorded history (after the folk tales from ancient history). This is also the reason there’s been no synthesis of the ancient revealed religions and modern science. You wield a cell phone with one hand but walk around peculiarly expecting to see weird miracles. Yet elegant speech in the scriptures was not authority.