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bdsimon

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Re: On works and faith
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2019, 01:10:29 pm »
You can't separate the two so neither.
You teach kids. How much do they need to have right in order to be saved?
Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.

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Language-Gamer

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Re: On works and faith
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2019, 01:15:09 pm »
You can't separate the two so neither.
You teach kids. How much do they need to have right in order to be saved?

I can't say I try to think in these reductionistic terms. I like this one guy who said to teach everything Jesus commanded.
I told her all about how we been livin' a lie

And that they love to see us all go to prison or die

Like, "Baby, look at how they show us on the TV screen"

But all she ever want me to do is unzip her jeans

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bdsimon

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Re: On works and faith
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2019, 02:19:57 pm »
You can't separate the two so neither.
You teach kids. How much do they need to have right in order to be saved?

I can't say I try to think in these reductionistic terms. I like this one guy who said to teach everything Jesus commanded.
Sure, I don't have a problem with that and think you are right on there. But if you go back to my reply, you did not answer the first part. If you are loving God and others, and have confessed Jesus as Lord but believe wrongly in one of the other 13 views about justification by faith vs judgment on works, then what? And that was the same question I was asking about kids. Not what should you teach them, but what must they have right?

Are you saying you need to have faith in Christ and perfect theology?

You are quick to be snarky on my honest reply and I expect that since my reply comes across as if I don't care about the truth. That's not actually the case though. I do care. But I don't think I have enough time or resources to determine what is the perfectly right answer here. Scholars don't agree, so how can I, a layperson, expect to be able to get it exactly right?

Which version do you hold to?
Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.

3

Language-Gamer

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Re: On works and faith
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2019, 02:33:34 pm »
You can't separate the two so neither.
You teach kids. How much do they need to have right in order to be saved?

I can't say I try to think in these reductionistic terms. I like this one guy who said to teach everything Jesus commanded.
Sure, I don't have a problem with that and think you are right on there. But if you go back to my reply, you did not answer the first part. If you are loving God and others, and have confessed Jesus as Lord but believe wrongly in one of the other 13 views about justification by faith vs judgment on works, then what? And that was the same question I was asking about kids. Not what should you teach them, but what must they have right?

Are you saying you need to have faith in Christ and perfect theology?

You are quick to be snarky on my honest reply and I expect that since my reply comes across as if I don't care about the truth. That's not actually the case though. I do care. But I don't think I have enough time or resources to determine what is the perfectly right answer here. Scholars don't agree, so how can I, a layperson, expect to be able to get it exactly right?

Which version do you hold to?

Then what? Well it depends. But if the antecedent is if you go with whatever views help you love God and neighbor more, then the then what is you aren't loving God with your whole being like you should because you aren't even trying to figure out what's right, but, instead, are basing your theology probably on bad other beliefs or desires you have instead of calling those into question.

My point in general isn't to be snarky. I know that I often am and my terse replies lend to that interpretation, so you will simply have to take my word for it. I'm trying to point out that the framing is all wrong. we shouldn't be trying to figure out the bare minimum of what they must have right in order to be saved. That's the anemic evangelicalism that got us in this whole mess in the first place. I don't think you're gonna find much of that in the bible either. I assume you know I don't think you have to have perfect theology (although I do like that I have perfect theology, personally).

I'm not saying you need to devote all of your time to this question. That's fine. If you don't know which view is correct, that's cool too. But to say that people should go with whatever view helps them to some pragmatic end is the sort of pragmatism has infected the american church, and as Hauerwas says, God is killing the American church and we damn well deserve it.

My view is N, although I don't see that as excluding some of the others.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 02:37:59 pm by Language-Gamer »
I told her all about how we been livin' a lie

And that they love to see us all go to prison or die

Like, "Baby, look at how they show us on the TV screen"

But all she ever want me to do is unzip her jeans

4

bdsimon

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Re: On works and faith
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2019, 02:55:55 pm »
Thank you for a more thorough reply. I appreciate when you actually engage because a brief sentence can be taken a number of ways and I know that you can be a very effective communicator when you desire to be one. I will say this, I didn't say that I didn't try to figure it out and I carefully defined my "pragmatic approach" such that it should reflect authentic faith.

Also, I probably lean more towards L than N but it could be N.
Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.

5

Language-Gamer

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Re: On works and faith
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2019, 03:31:13 pm »
I don’t believe you said you didn’t try to figure it out.

It’s fine if people don’t have a view. But why would you say to just throw a dart at the dartboard based on romancing the stone as to what will bear fruit for love of God and love of neighbor (as if our evaluations on this are clear, not fallen, and not in conflict with the actual practice)? Abuse doesn’t nullify use.
I told her all about how we been livin' a lie

And that they love to see us all go to prison or die

Like, "Baby, look at how they show us on the TV screen"

But all she ever want me to do is unzip her jeans

6

Language-Gamer

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Re: On works and faith
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2019, 03:38:39 pm »
this was actually what I was looking for.
I told her all about how we been livin' a lie

And that they love to see us all go to prison or die

Like, "Baby, look at how they show us on the TV screen"

But all she ever want me to do is unzip her jeans

7

bdsimon

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Re: On works and faith
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2019, 04:37:14 pm »
I don’t believe you said you didn’t try to figure it out.

It’s fine if people don’t have a view. But why would you say to just throw a dart at the dartboard based on romancing the stone as to what will bear fruit for love of God and love of neighbor (as if our evaluations on this are clear, not fallen, and not in conflict with the actual practice)? Abuse doesn’t nullify use.
I will read your other link later after I get back from meeting with a friend. I do want to clarify my first reply since my answer was rather broad and wasn’t meant to be. I’m not saying throw a dart and I was specifically speaking of faith and works and how they apply to justification and judgment.

So, you (generic you, not you. Maybe kravarnik) believe you have to do good works in order to be justified and escape judgment? How does this manifest itself in your life? Are you doing good works? Are you loving others? Are you growing in obedience? Do you thirst for God’s word? Shouldn’t you be examining yourself to see if you are in the faith? What should you do if you examine yourself and find you are lacking in fruit?

Now, do you take exception to the above?
Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.

8

Language-Gamer

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Re: On works and faith
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2019, 05:08:24 pm »
I don’t see how that clarifies what you said before. Let’s say we look at that paper and the various options. Suppose we rule out the ones that see them as irreconcilable so it’s simply about the best way to put them together. Now suppose I’m not a scholar and I’m fairly busy so it’s not like I can do much reading and thinking on the topic (and most of my reading will be of the biblical texts). What do you say from here?

Or if you think there’s a better way to clarify your views, feel free.
I told her all about how we been livin' a lie

And that they love to see us all go to prison or die

Like, "Baby, look at how they show us on the TV screen"

But all she ever want me to do is unzip her jeans

9

kravarnik

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Re: On works and faith
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2019, 01:54:28 am »
Thanks, this clarification was helpful. I would even say I am in agreement with you on some of what you have said here. The typical (reformed) view of total inability does not square with me and your view is more in line with mine. This doesn't mean we can please God on our own but it also doesn't mean that we can't make some progress along the way. The Bible does use hyperbole on occasion to make points. The difficult part for everyone is knowing what may be hyperbolic (no one is righteous, not even one, if your eye offends you gouge it out; etc.) and what may not be.

I don't think hyperbole is difficult to identify.

For example: "no one is righteous, not even one" - Abraham was righteous. Moses was righteous. The Apostles were righteous. So, the claim is made more about the current state of affairs to the speaker, rather than for the entire human nature and each person ever.

I cannot bring myself to believe that whether one should and can do particular works, and what these works consist of, cannot be clearly answered, because of the hyperbole in the Scriptures.



I don't think there's any hyperbole involved when God issued what works we should do. I think hyperbole is primarily used to make a point of some sort. Of the man's will primacy in decision making; or as in the case of "gouging one's eyes", it is to show of what importance is man's perception of life and the world(=how he views the world).


Hyperbole is used in teachings, not in commandments, in my opinion. In commandments, God is very clear. Do X. Do Y. In teachings, God clearly has the structure of a teaching: if you do so and so, then so and so will happen; if you want to be able to do so and so, then so and so is needed(=premises that lead to a moral; premises that lead to a conclusion). And so on. The very structure of commandments and teachings are different and are not that difficult to spot, in my opinion.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 01:57:36 am by kravarnik »
"And even if you crush my body and drain it 'til the last drop - you can never touch my spirit, you can never touch my soul. No matter how bleak or how hopeless, no matter how hard or how far - you can never break my conation. Tear the will apart from desire." Insomnium - Weather the storm

10

kravarnik

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Re: On works and faith
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2019, 02:09:37 am »
I don’t believe you said you didn’t try to figure it out.

It’s fine if people don’t have a view. But why would you say to just throw a dart at the dartboard based on romancing the stone as to what will bear fruit for love of God and love of neighbor (as if our evaluations on this are clear, not fallen, and not in conflict with the actual practice)? Abuse doesn’t nullify use.
I will read your other link later after I get back from meeting with a friend. I do want to clarify my first reply since my answer was rather broad and wasn’t meant to be. I’m not saying throw a dart and I was specifically speaking of faith and works and how they apply to justification and judgment.

So, you (generic you, not you. Maybe kravarnik) believe you have to do good works in order to be justified and escape judgment? How does this manifest itself in your life? Are you doing good works? Are you loving others? Are you growing in obedience? Do you thirst for God’s word? Shouldn’t you be examining yourself to see if you are in the faith? What should you do if you examine yourself and find you are lacking in fruit?

Now, do you take exception to the above?

I simply make no separation between faith and works. This is a false dialectic. I believe faith: willing the Good that God is, leads to works - obeying God. There's at no point where I think faith is divorced from works, or works from faith.


This dialectic has been introduced later in Christian history. All along until then, the Christian was supposed to work out his Salvation in fear and trembling and call to God's Mercy, because most of us are hypocrites and don't know whether our fruit good enough. That's why we are expected to abstain from judging others, from condemning them, because we ourselves aren't perfect and should be careful about what we do and say.
 

Faith justifies your Salvation and works justify your faith. You cannot have faith without works, because then anyone can claim "I'm Saved, because of faith!". Well, how do you actually know someone has faith? You take their word for it? And God should take their word for it too?


Your faith itself must be justified. Faith is not an exception to the rule of justification. Faith is justified by living it out. Then you can claim you have faith. I am not a righteous man, as such I don't claim to be an exemplar of Christianity and pray to God for His Mercy, for I am a hypocrite.



The point is that you know essence through energy. You know the nature of a thing by what the thing does. I could never know what kind of person you are, if you kept silent and didn't do anything, but stood still. I could never know whether you're a Buddhist, Taoist, Zoroastrian, Christian and so on. You know the mind by the revelation of its acts and/or words. So, how can you have faith, if your acts tell us otherwise? Couldn't, then, the murderer simply say - "don't judge me on the basis of the murders I've done, for I am actually quite the philanthropist deep inside my inner-being!(while proceeding to murder)" and we should believe him?


So, your position seem to me to be arriving at: "Oh, no, God, let me pass into Your Kingdom, for I had great faith, I only didn't live it out!". But acts must be consistent with words(and words are "uttered thoughts", so to speak), and vice-versa. Much like faith must be consistent with works from said faith and vice-versa.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 02:17:22 am by kravarnik »
"And even if you crush my body and drain it 'til the last drop - you can never touch my spirit, you can never touch my soul. No matter how bleak or how hopeless, no matter how hard or how far - you can never break my conation. Tear the will apart from desire." Insomnium - Weather the storm

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bdsimon

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Re: On works and faith
« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2019, 07:43:06 am »
I don’t see how that clarifies what you said before. Let’s say we look at that paper and the various options. Suppose we rule out the ones that see them as irreconcilable so it’s simply about the best way to put them together. Now suppose I’m not a scholar and I’m fairly busy so it’s not like I can do much reading and thinking on the topic (and most of my reading will be of the biblical texts). What do you say from here?

Or if you think there’s a better way to clarify your views, feel free.
That's an entirely different question altogether. I am very comfortable with where I am and how I got there but I wouldn't advise anyone else in the same manner. So, if I were teaching on subject matter related to justification and judgment and faith and works then I would try to exhaustively cover the relevant passages and point out the arguments in favor and against each within your paper. I would, of course, rule out irreconcilable.

If I were asking you or kravarnik about your position I would refer back to my prior list of questions. I would not try to argue you into believing something different.
Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.

12

kravarnik

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Re: On works and faith
« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2019, 08:01:18 am »
I don’t see how that clarifies what you said before. Let’s say we look at that paper and the various options. Suppose we rule out the ones that see them as irreconcilable so it’s simply about the best way to put them together. Now suppose I’m not a scholar and I’m fairly busy so it’s not like I can do much reading and thinking on the topic (and most of my reading will be of the biblical texts). What do you say from here?

Or if you think there’s a better way to clarify your views, feel free.
That's an entirely different question altogether. I am very comfortable with where I am and how I got there but I wouldn't advise anyone else in the same manner. So, if I were teaching on subject matter related to justification and judgment and faith and works then I would try to exhaustively cover the relevant passages and point out the arguments in favor and against each within your paper. I would, of course, rule out irreconcilable.

If I were asking you or kravarnik about your position I would refer back to my prior list of questions. I would not try to argue you into believing something different.

bdsimon, don't you agree that the spirit of your message is rather relativistic? There's a truth to the matter. The Church must contain, for 2000 years of history, what Salvation is constituted of. What is the Covenant of Salvation.


We don't argue "how exactly Creation happened", or "how exactly to interpret the Book of Revelation", but the Covenant of Salvation and what constitutes faith, which is what has you enter said Covenant. The Church must have come to know the Truth for all the history.



I don't understand why you try to relativize the matter, no offense. And if you are to say "everyone is entitled to their own doctrine", then that's just more relativism, no offense. This breaks any unity the Church has and is an awful image to present to the observing non-believer.
"And even if you crush my body and drain it 'til the last drop - you can never touch my spirit, you can never touch my soul. No matter how bleak or how hopeless, no matter how hard or how far - you can never break my conation. Tear the will apart from desire." Insomnium - Weather the storm

13

Language-Gamer

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Re: On works and faith
« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2019, 08:28:36 am »
I don’t see how that clarifies what you said before. Let’s say we look at that paper and the various options. Suppose we rule out the ones that see them as irreconcilable so it’s simply about the best way to put them together. Now suppose I’m not a scholar and I’m fairly busy so it’s not like I can do much reading and thinking on the topic (and most of my reading will be of the biblical texts). What do you say from here?

Or if you think there’s a better way to clarify your views, feel free.
That's an entirely different question altogether. I am very comfortable with where I am and how I got there but I wouldn't advise anyone else in the same manner. So, if I were teaching on subject matter related to justification and judgment and faith and works then I would try to exhaustively cover the relevant passages and point out the arguments in favor and against each within your paper. I would, of course, rule out irreconcilable.

If I were asking you or kravarnik about your position I would refer back to my prior list of questions. I would not try to argue you into believing something different.

Then I don't know what you mean by earlier when you said this: "Honestly? My current view is that a person should hold whatever set of beliefs in this regard that best motivates them to love God and love others (without going all hyper-Calvinist and redefining those terms to suit your theology)." That's what I'm trying to ask you to clarify by my question. If this person came to you in that situation and asked for advice (not to go through them with him or tell him what is right), do you say that? Because I don't see how your post before was supposed to clarify the post I quote in this response.
I told her all about how we been livin' a lie

And that they love to see us all go to prison or die

Like, "Baby, look at how they show us on the TV screen"

But all she ever want me to do is unzip her jeans

14

bdsimon

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Re: On works and faith
« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2019, 02:43:29 pm »

I don't understand why you try to relativize the matter, no offense. And if you are to say "everyone is entitled to their own doctrine", then that's just more relativism, no offense. This breaks any unity the Church has and is an awful image to present to the observing non-believer.
I'm not offended so no worries. I don't think I could convince you that I am not trying to relativize the message but I will say I certainly consider it to be much more subtle than that. I simply believe that the message within the Bible will appeal to different people in different ways. This doesn't eliminate truths though. Authentic faith will have authentic works and there is only one name by which we might be saved. I just believe that what motivates one person to authentic faith might not be the same as what motivates another person. I hope that helps.

However, I don't believe that holding the correct positions on ancillary debated doctrines are necessary for a saving faith. A quick example could be YEC to step outside of this discussion. I don't think your beliefs in the age of the earth play a part in  your salvation. So if you are a YEC guy I am not going to argue with you about it.

Also, thanks for the detailed view of how you see faith and works. I thought that was helpful.
Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.