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lapwing

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Re: The Iran debacle
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2020, 04:49:18 pm »
Some countries could regard the US as a "terrorist" regime e.g. Laos, Cambodia, Nicaragua

Iran doesn't hide the fact that it supports terror groups like Hamas. And it doesn't hide its hatred of America and Israel.

Even supposing you could find America doing something equivalent... and? That would make it sensible to give Iran money?

Do you mean that the US concealing its bombing of Laos and Cambodia in the Vietnam War makes it ok?
Does threatening cultural sites add up to hatred? Would bombing them mean hatred?

"We've bombed your cultural sites but we don't hate you"
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Mammal

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Re: The Iran debacle
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2020, 11:43:14 pm »
Just to be clear, if it is true that there was reputable intel that part of the plans behind Soleimani's trip was to coordinate an escalation of potentially deadly attacks against US targets - as the Pentagon is claiming, and as Reuters reported on - then it would indeed be a different story.

PS. I agree with lapwing re the threats against cultural cites. No need for that.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2020, 11:45:08 pm by Mammal »
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Tom Paine

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Re: The Iran debacle
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2020, 09:09:41 am »
Obama didn't start a war with Iran, but did send them something like 1.7 billion in cash I believe. Now that money was owed to Iran over an arms deal, but that doesn't mean you hand over the cash to a terrorist regime...

Especially when they like to chant "Death to America"... that's kind of a hint not to fund them...

You might if that can get them to agree to a verifiable non proliferation deal. As a secularist, the Iranian theocratic regime is abhorrent. If there was some way to take it out that wouldn't lead to the deaths of countless Iranians and possibly to WWIII, i'd be all for taking the shot. Also taking out Suliemani doesn't cost me much if any moral qualms. However strategically I think it is blunder and the unintended consequences I fear could be far worse than the consequences of letting him live. Of course, we don't know what intelligence Trump was privy to that would change that assessment. However, I believe that according to the war powers act, he needs to share that with the congress, but it seems he hasn't done that as of yet.

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lapwing

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Re: The Iran debacle
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2020, 12:02:24 pm »
I'm just listening to a BBC radio programme about this and referring to the shooting down of the Iranian passenger airliner in 1988 (all 290 died) by the USS Vincennes
The initial US reaction was one of lies: that it was descending when it was ascending and that it was using a military IFF signal when it was using a civilian one. This was from an American interviewee. The commander was later given a medal by the US for this!

Edit: The facts of the matter were determined by the Civil Aviation Authority which is not a puppet of Iran afaik. The US gov't eventually paid compensation to the families affected.

Now this doesn't mean that the US is lying about the killing of Major General Qasem Soleimani but it explains why the Iranians don't trust the Americans: they have form.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2020, 09:54:18 am by lapwing »
For by one sacrifice Jesus has made perfect forever those who are being sanctified.

"Those who are still afraid of men have no fear of God, and those who have fear of God have ceased to be afraid of men"
"If the world refuses justice, the Christian will pursue mercy"
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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lapwing

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Re: The Iran debacle
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2020, 12:08:37 pm »
Tom

Don't you think it's up to the Iranians to choose their own government. The US (and UK) helped to replace the popular Mohammad Mosaddegh in 1953 because of his action to nationalise the Iranian oil industry. He was replaced by the more western compliant  but autocratic and cruel Shah of Iran.
Now how did that work out?
For by one sacrifice Jesus has made perfect forever those who are being sanctified.

"Those who are still afraid of men have no fear of God, and those who have fear of God have ceased to be afraid of men"
"If the world refuses justice, the Christian will pursue mercy"
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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bskeptic

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Re: The Iran debacle
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2020, 06:46:33 am »


You might if that can get them to agree to a verifiable non proliferation deal.



Even assuming it was a good deal when it came to preventing them getting nuclear weapons, (which is disputed), it meant (reducing sanctions) giving them access to billions and billions in cash, which they could use to fund terrorism and engage in destabilising the region.

Why would that be preferable? War is a bad thing, but should we be petrified of it? Imo, we should try to grind the regime down with sanctions, and go to war with them if needed.

A skeptical article on the nuke deal--

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/05/iran-nuclear-deal-flawed/559595/

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bdsimon

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Re: The Iran debacle
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2020, 08:23:35 am »
Conspiracy theorists are positing that Iran wanted the US to take out Soleimani so they gave us the intel to take the shot. This accounts for the 15 missiles inflicting zero casualties last night. If nothing happens at 11 with the Trump address, can we assume the theory is true?
Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.

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bskeptic

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Re: The Iran debacle
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2020, 12:07:04 pm »
Conspiracy theorists are positing that Iran wanted the US to take out Soleimani so they gave us the intel to take the shot. This accounts for the 15 missiles inflicting zero casualties last night. If nothing happens at 11 with the Trump address, can we assume the theory is true?

This is all the plan of Iran to help Trump win a second term and distract from impeachment.

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bdsimon

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Re: The Iran debacle
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2020, 08:12:17 am »
Conspiracy theorists are positing that Iran wanted the US to take out Soleimani so they gave us the intel to take the shot. This accounts for the 15 missiles inflicting zero casualties last night. If nothing happens at 11 with the Trump address, can we assume the theory is true?

This is all the plan of Iran to help Trump win a second term and distract from impeachment.
Well, Putin via Iran... but sure.
Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.

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bdsimon

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Re: The Iran debacle
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2020, 02:16:16 pm »
In other news, Justin Trudeau has stated that Iran shot down the plane.
Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.

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Mammal

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Re: The Iran debacle
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2020, 12:08:48 pm »
^ Apparently while launching missiles against US targets in retaliation for the US attack on Soleimani. So collateral damage in the wake of said event. And I have seen some footage of the US anti missile battery in action during said attack. It is hugely impressive from a technological perspective and appears to be the actual factor that prevented casualties. There goes that conspiracy..

And more news..Iraq voted for US withdrawal and requested the US to start working towards that..US refuses..uhmm, what next?
« Last Edit: January 11, 2020, 10:29:21 am by Mammal »
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lapwing

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Re: The Iran debacle
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2020, 07:18:51 pm »
Iraq are miffed that Iran and US are conducting a proxy war in their country. ISIS could benefit if US et al withdraw troops.
For by one sacrifice Jesus has made perfect forever those who are being sanctified.

"Those who are still afraid of men have no fear of God, and those who have fear of God have ceased to be afraid of men"
"If the world refuses justice, the Christian will pursue mercy"
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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Mammal

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Re: The Iran debacle
« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2020, 01:35:30 pm »
This is starting to resemble a war-like diplomatic soap opera..

Apparantly there was a conspiracy-like behind-the-scene discussion via the Swiss embassy that went something like this:
Iran: You left us no choice, we have to respond.
USA: Ok but don't push it, or Trump's ire;
Iran: So we have launched those missiles and won't do it again..and that passenger jet, oops..

And seperately with Iraq:
Iraq: We voted and you need to pull out.
USA: No, we refuse and if you force us out we'll  cut off access to your account held at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York that holds billions in oil revenue.

The Apprentice @ The White House.

To be continued..
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