Maxximiliann

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Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2020, 09:49:32 am »
Rush Limbaugh was in the news this week for suggesting America isn't ready for a "gay man kising his husband" as President.  I pondered this from my politically liberal, atheist point of view - and it seems to me that this would imply there is still too much anti-gay prejudice in this country - because homosexuality has no bearing on the intellignce, knowledge, or judgment of that man. 

That said, I''m curious of the perspective of evangelicals.  Could you vote for a gay man based on his merits (assume you agree with his policy views and consider him intellectually adequate) and ignore the fact that he's gay - and in a gay marriage? 

If you're tempted to say no, because he's actively sinning and showcasing this sinful lifestyle, consider Trump.

First, loyal followers of Jesus Christ are obligated before God to be wholly devoted to him and his Kingdom, the Theocracy. Their prayers should be for God’s Kingdom, not for the USA, Israel or any other nation. (Matt. 6:10, 33)

In light of what Jesus Christ disclosed as to the identity of the invisible ruler of the world (John 12:31; 14:30) how could a person who is devoted to God’s Kingdom favor one side or the other in a conflict between factions of the world? Had not Jesus said of his followers: “They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world”? (John 17:16)

The neutrality of the early Christians in relation to the political and military affairs of the world is an established fact of history. It was in harmony with Jesus’ refusal to be made king by the crowds (John 6:15) and with his statement to Pilate that his kingdom was no part of the world. (John 18:36)

Justin Martyr, of the second century C.E., in his "Dialogue With Trypho, a Jew" (CX): "We who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons, - our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage." (The Ante-Nicene Father, Vol. I. p. 254)

Finally, Christ Jesus  taught, "ἔσωθεν γὰρ ἐκ τῆς καρδίας τῶν ἀνθρώπων οἱ διαλογισμοὶ οἱ κακοὶ ἐκπορεύονται, πορνεῖαι . . .  πάντα. ταῦτα τὰ πονηρὰ ἔσωθεν ἐκπορεύεται καὶ κοινοῖ τὸν ἄνθρωπον."-Mark 7:21,23 As such, Christians reject all forms of πορνεία, homosexuality included. This being the case, how can anyone professing to abide by Christ's lofty moral standards condone or even advocate for any sexually immoral lifestyles?
1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

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Fred

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Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2020, 02:35:49 pm »
Rush Limbaugh was in the news this week for suggesting America isn't ready for a "gay man kising his husband" as President.  I pondered this from my politically liberal, atheist point of view - and it seems to me that this would imply there is still too much anti-gay prejudice in this country - because homosexuality has no bearing on the intellignce, knowledge, or judgment of that man. 

That said, I''m curious of the perspective of evangelicals.  Could you vote for a gay man based on his merits (assume you agree with his policy views and consider him intellectually adequate) and ignore the fact that he's gay - and in a gay marriage? 

If you're tempted to say no, because he's actively sinning and showcasing this sinful lifestyle, consider Trump.

First, loyal followers of Jesus Christ are obligated before God to be wholly devoted to him and his Kingdom, the Theocracy. Their prayers should be for God’s Kingdom, not for the USA, Israel or any other nation. (Matt. 6:10, 33)

In light of what Jesus Christ disclosed as to the identity of the invisible ruler of the world (John 12:31; 14:30) how could a person who is devoted to God’s Kingdom favor one side or the other in a conflict between factions of the world? Had not Jesus said of his followers: “They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world”? (John 17:16)

The neutrality of the early Christians in relation to the political and military affairs of the world is an established fact of history. It was in harmony with Jesus’ refusal to be made king by the crowds (John 6:15) and with his statement to Pilate that his kingdom was no part of the world. (John 18:36)

Justin Martyr, of the second century C.E., in his "Dialogue With Trypho, a Jew" (CX): "We who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons, - our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage." (The Ante-Nicene Father, Vol. I. p. 254)

Finally, Christ Jesus  taught, "ἔσωθεν γὰρ ἐκ τῆς καρδίας τῶν ἀνθρώπων οἱ διαλογισμοὶ οἱ κακοὶ ἐκπορεύονται, πορνεῖαι . . .  πάντα. ταῦτα τὰ πονηρὰ ἔσωθεν ἐκπορεύεται καὶ κοινοῖ τὸν ἄνθρωπον."-Mark 7:21,23 As such, Christians reject all forms of πορνεία, homosexuality included. This being the case, how can anyone professing to abide by Christ's lofty moral standards condone or even advocate for any sexually immoral lifestyles?
It sounds like you would consider a vote for a gay man for President  to be condoning homosexual behavior.

That suggests you would be condoning Trump's behavior if you vote for him.  For example, he has cheated on every wife he's ever had, and he habitually objectifies women. Why condone that?
Fred

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Fred

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Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2020, 02:44:33 pm »
Trump could come out as gay. No problem.

Evangelicals would forgive him for it.

The liberals would despise him for it.
I agree with your point, but not with this example. Liberals tend to support gay rights.  Still, we all tend to feel outrage at the characteristics of the person we oppose.  Thoughtful people will try and develop a principle that they apply to the future. So, for example, evangelicals who accept Trump's behavior should refrain from criticizing analogous behavior in liberal politicians.  Liberals who are outraged by Trump's behavior should be equally unaccepting of such behavior in a liberal.
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Maxximiliann

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Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2020, 12:37:38 pm »
Rush Limbaugh was in the news this week for suggesting America isn't ready for a "gay man kising his husband" as President.  I pondered this from my politically liberal, atheist point of view - and it seems to me that this would imply there is still too much anti-gay prejudice in this country - because homosexuality has no bearing on the intellignce, knowledge, or judgment of that man. 

That said, I''m curious of the perspective of evangelicals.  Could you vote for a gay man based on his merits (assume you agree with his policy views and consider him intellectually adequate) and ignore the fact that he's gay - and in a gay marriage? 

If you're tempted to say no, because he's actively sinning and showcasing this sinful lifestyle, consider Trump.

First, loyal followers of Jesus Christ are obligated before God to be wholly devoted to him and his Kingdom, the Theocracy. Their prayers should be for God’s Kingdom, not for the USA, Israel or any other nation. (Matt. 6:10, 33)

In light of what Jesus Christ disclosed as to the identity of the invisible ruler of the world (John 12:31; 14:30) how could a person who is devoted to God’s Kingdom favor one side or the other in a conflict between factions of the world? Had not Jesus said of his followers: “They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world”? (John 17:16)

The neutrality of the early Christians in relation to the political and military affairs of the world is an established fact of history. It was in harmony with Jesus’ refusal to be made king by the crowds (John 6:15) and with his statement to Pilate that his kingdom was no part of the world. (John 18:36)

Justin Martyr, of the second century C.E., in his "Dialogue With Trypho, a Jew" (CX): "We who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons, - our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage." (The Ante-Nicene Father, Vol. I. p. 254)

Finally, Christ Jesus  taught, "ἔσωθεν γὰρ ἐκ τῆς καρδίας τῶν ἀνθρώπων οἱ διαλογισμοὶ οἱ κακοὶ ἐκπορεύονται, πορνεῖαι . . .  πάντα. ταῦτα τὰ πονηρὰ ἔσωθεν ἐκπορεύεται καὶ κοινοῖ τὸν ἄνθρωπον."-Mark 7:21,23 As such, Christians reject all forms of πορνεία, homosexuality included. This being the case, how can anyone professing to abide by Christ's lofty moral standards condone or even advocate for any sexually immoral lifestyles?
It sounds like you would consider a vote for a gay man for President  to be condoning homosexual behavior.

That suggests you would be condoning Trump's behavior if you vote for him.  For example, he has cheated on every wife he's ever had, and he habitually objectifies women. Why condone that?

It appears you missed the thrust of my rejoinder. Christians don't vote. Like Christ Jesus, our model, we are 'not part of the world just as he was no part of the world' especially since "friendship with the world is enmity with God." (James 4:4; John 17:16)
1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

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Fred

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Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2020, 03:49:29 pm »

It appears you missed the thrust of my rejoinder. Christians don't vote. Like Christ Jesus, our model, we are 'not part of the world just as he was no part of the world' especially since "friendship with the world is enmity with God." (James 4:4; John 17:16)
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My Op was directed at that group of people who label themselves "evangelical Christians" and vote (or at least consider voting), regardless of whether or not they fit your particular definition of  "Christian".

As an aside, it's kinda interesting that you apply the term "Christian" so narrowly, particular since Harvey doesn't consider YOU a Christian. 
« Last Edit: March 07, 2020, 12:24:52 am by Fred »
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Maxximiliann

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Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2020, 04:39:55 am »

It appears you missed the thrust of my rejoinder. Christians don't vote. Like Christ Jesus, our model, we are 'not part of the world just as he was no part of the world' especially since "friendship with the world is enmity with God." (James 4:4; John 17:16)
.
it's kinda interesting that you apply the term "Christian" so narrowly, particular since Harvey doesn't consider YOU a Christian. 

With the code of conduct he supplied his loyal ones, Christ drew a bright line and then announced that absolutely everyone on the other side is not a Christian.  So wholly devoted to this code would these be that all non-Christian world-views/conduct would be effortlessly recognized.  (Malachi 3:18 cf.  Titus 1:16)

These preach the gospel, and if necessary, use words.

Meaning that, just as we are able to distinguish genuine legal tender apart from Monopoly money, any sincere person can make a distinction between a Christian and an Anti-Christian (Satanist).



Harvey is no arbiter of who is a Christian or not.  So if those of any Christian sect, like Harvey himself, are sedulous disciples of Christ then Muhammad was Jewish .  .  . 
1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

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Fred

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Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2020, 09:39:21 pm »
Harvey is no arbiter of who is a Christian or not. 
Agreed, but neither are you.  As far as I'm concerned, anyone who calls himself a Christian IS a Christian.  It's just a label  and it doesn't have to mean the same thing to everyone.  If you want to understand what someone believes, ask them.
Fred

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TheCross

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Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2020, 06:45:46 am »
Harvey is no arbiter of who is a Christian or not. 
Agreed, but neither are you.  As far as I'm concerned, anyone who calls himself a Christian IS a Christian.  It's just a label  and it doesn't have to mean the same thing to everyone.  If you want to understand what someone believes, ask them.

Being a label entails that you adhere to specific points that manifest into that said label.
Everyone can claim to be anything if all that it takes is to belive the claim, it’s not a healthy and sound way of looking at things.
It also introduces really wierd concepts, in this case, as christians follow christ, it would mean that a practicing homosexual for example has put his authority above the one which he or she claims to be the authority.
If you find this approach to be reasonable, then so be it, but it is in no way coherent.
Gal 2:20: I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2020, 02:51:41 am »
Harvey is no arbiter of who is a Christian or not. 
Agreed, but neither are you.  As far as I'm concerned, anyone who calls himself a Christian IS a Christian.  It's just a label  and it doesn't have to mean the same thing to everyone.  If you want to understand what someone believes, ask them.

And actions prove why words mean nothing:

Quote
"You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. It is in vain that they keep worshipping me.’”" -Matthew 15:7-9 (Emphasis mine)

"“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will." -Matthew 7:21 (Emphasis mine)
1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

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bdsimon

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Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2020, 09:14:46 am »
Trump could come out as gay. No problem.

Evangelicals would forgive him for it.

The liberals would despise him for it.
This is an underrated comment. In fact, I would say it is a great comment. Everyone says so.
Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.

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Fred

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Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2020, 10:29:48 am »

Being a label entails that you adhere to specific points that manifest into that said label.
OK. In the future, I'll apply Max's points to decide whether or not someone is really a Christian.  So tell me, do you vote?  I need to know this, because Max says Christians don't vote. 
Fred

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2020, 10:50:49 am »

Being a label entails that you adhere to specific points that manifest into that said label.
OK. In the future, I'll apply Max's points to decide whether or not someone is really a Christian.  So tell me, do you vote?  I need to know this, because Max says Christians don't vote. 

It appears you missed the thrust of my rejoinder so I'll reiterate. With the code of conduct he supplied his loyal ones, Christ drew a bright line and then announced that absolutely everyone on the other side is not a Christian.  So wholly devoted to this code would these be that all non-Christian world-views/conduct would be effortlessly recognized.  (Malachi 3:18 cf.  Titus 1:16)

That is the benchmark by which all who claim to be Christian need to be measured up against, not what I've said or not said. After all, was I Christianity's founder?
1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

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TheCross

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Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2020, 07:59:04 am »

Being a label entails that you adhere to specific points that manifest into that said label.
OK. In the future, I'll apply Max's points to decide whether or not someone is really a Christian.  So tell me, do you vote?  I need to know this, because Max says Christians don't vote.

I have not. Not because I belive it’s right or wrong to vote, I just noticed that it really does not matter what party gains power, as the party system is so corrupt that no change will be able to manifest, this is why I was hoping Trump would go as an independent runner, but he chose to go red.
In any event, I do not agree with Max that christians should ignore everything ungodly in the world, the lord himself tells us to adapt to both in his ”render unto cesear...” he does not say ignore cesear.
Gal 2:20: I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

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Maxximiliann

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Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2020, 09:13:41 am »

Being a label entails that you adhere to specific points that manifest into that said label.
OK. In the future, I'll apply Max's points to decide whether or not someone is really a Christian.  So tell me, do you vote?  I need to know this, because Max says Christians don't vote.
I do not agree with Max that christians should ignore everything ungodly in the world, the lord himself tells us to adapt to both in his ”render unto cesear...” he does not say ignore cesear.

Jesus also made clear that his disciples "are no part of the world,  just as [he was] no part of the world." -John 17:15, 16 (Bracket mine.)

That's why Christians, while civic minded and law abiding tax payers, have always been politically neutral and refuse military service.

1+1+1=3 NOT 1

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry ​YOU​ off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2:8

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Khaos

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Re: Could evangelical Christians vote for a Gay man for President?
« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2020, 03:51:18 pm »
Playing devil's advocate as as someone non-religious and therefore from the outside, why exactly did Christ advocate against homosexuality in the first place? Did he do so because he actually believed it to be a person's incorrect choice? An alternate solution is that he had to make concessions to get people to believe in The Bible as that was the only way that it could catch on enough for him to have his religion be efficacious in the day. When someone is too radical for their time, what happens is that they get shunned as a lunatic. Jesus was not truly omnipotent because he chose not to fully exercise that power. If you can answer these questions, you should also be able to answer the one you have.