BlackHole

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Atheists: Explain this stunning biblical prophecy!
« on: July 17, 2020, 02:08:45 am »
Daniel 8 has a prophecy that the Jews will be exonerated 2300 years after the time Alexander the Great defeats the persians by the river. That's what Daniel chapter 8 is about. Daniel refers to years as days--be careful if you're not familiar with the language of this apocalyptic literature (which the Jews understood in the Rabbinic literature long before they even understood what this prophecy was about)--2300 "evenings and mornings" refers to 2300 passovers.

When did Alexander the Great defeat the Persian? There were three key battles, the first and most important battle, where Alexander the Great himself participated in is called the Battle of Granicus which took place by the RIVER of Granicus. And the river is right there is Daniel chapter 8. That is when the Greeks defeated Darius the Persian. This took place in the year 334 BCE in the late spring.

2300 years after the year 334 BCE (make sure you also count the year '0' as one of the years)--count forward and you will find yourself in the late spring of  1967!

For those who don't know, 1967 is the year the Jews gained control of all of Jerusalem (AKA the Temple mount), and they have finally been exonerated after many centuries of persistent and repetitive persecution by the world.

How did people understand this passage in Daniel 100 years ago? The answer is they didn't. The tried to make sense of it, but it was impossible. What does a river have to do with Alexander the Great and the Persians, what is going on here? Many Rabbis expressed the core message that many of these prophecies--we couldn't understand how they will unfold, but we just know they will--and there will be a signpost when it happens that we have lived through that event.

The only question we ask is--what are the odds? Why did it say 2300 years (very weird number of years, why 300 after the 2000) and not 2600, 1200, 500, 1000, why 2300 years? And why did it say after Greeks defeats Persian by the river, when it could've said literally anything else? Again, I say, what are the odds?

Source: http://www.sixdaywar.co.uk/Daniel8.pdf
 
If you want to read Daniel 8 for yourself https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16491/jewish/Chapter-8.htm

God keeps his promises. Even if he made them to people in the BCE times.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2020, 02:19:08 am by BlackHole »

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Mammal

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Re: Atheists: Explain this stunning biblical prophecy!
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2020, 02:26:35 am »
There are many sources describing the Daniel 8 prophecy, each one has its own explanation and also depending if your Jew or Christian I suppose...yawn.
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BlackHole

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Re: Atheists: Explain this stunning biblical prophecy!
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2020, 02:29:05 am »
There are many sources describing the Daniel 8 prophecy, each one has its own explanation and also depending if your Jew or Christian I suppose...yawn.

Diversity of explanation doesn't really affect what's in the bible though. Nor does it negate what the most plausible explanation is. What Daniel 8 says is quite specific with its numbers and what is being referenced.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2020, 02:35:59 am by BlackHole »

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Mammal

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Re: Atheists: Explain this stunning biblical prophecy!
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2020, 02:35:58 am »
^ Yes, but why think your explanation is the correct one - given that there are many others?

It's like reading things into Nostradamus writings.. Not my cup of tea.
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BlackHole

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Re: Atheists: Explain this stunning biblical prophecy!
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2020, 02:43:22 am »
As I said, the existence of many explanations has no bearing on what the most plausible one is. The one I mentioned in the OP includes the river as part of the battle the Greeks decisively defeated the persians, and 2300 years after that leads you to the late spring of 1967.

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belorg

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Re: Atheists: Explain this stunning biblical prophecy!
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2020, 03:00:23 am »
As I said, the existence of many explanations has no bearing on what the most plausible one is. The one I mentioned in the OP includes the river as part of the battle the Greeks decisively defeated the persians, and 2300 years after that leads you to the late spring of 1967.

What is 'the year 0'? Why should we count it as one of the years?

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kurros

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Re: Atheists: Explain this stunning biblical prophecy!
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2020, 04:07:58 am »
If the Lord wanted to impress us with prophecies then I feel like he could do significantly better than this.

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Johan Biemans (jbiemans)

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Re: Atheists: Explain this stunning biblical prophecy!
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2020, 06:32:21 am »
Why would they say "evenings and mornings", but mean passovers ?  Doesn't that sound like you are reading into it ?

Also, what are the odds ?  I don't think we have any to calculate that, but, presumably if the prophecy was clear enough, people then would have been just as capable of understanding it as we are now.  Is it not possible for people to have worked towards the goal of reinstating Isreal in accordance with the prophecy ?

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TheCross

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Re: Atheists: Explain this stunning biblical prophecy!
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2020, 06:43:17 am »
If the Lord wanted to impress us with prophecies then I feel like he could do significantly better than this.

I’m not saying anything regarding this OP or others like it, I just want to point out that this kind of objection can be done to anything at any given time.
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kurros

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Re: Atheists: Explain this stunning biblical prophecy!
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2020, 07:37:31 am »
If the Lord wanted to impress us with prophecies then I feel like he could do significantly better than this.

I’m not saying anything regarding this OP or others like it, I just want to point out that this kind of objection can be done to anything at any given time.

What? No it can't. It can only be applied to anything that is attributed to an omnipotent being. It's one of the major weaknesses of postulating such a being. When you postulate perfection is it pretty hard for the evidence to ever measure up to that.

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Jabberwock

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Re: Atheists: Explain this stunning biblical prophecy!
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2020, 07:51:00 am »
There was no 'year 0'.
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belorg

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Re: Atheists: Explain this stunning biblical prophecy!
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2020, 07:55:10 am »
There was no 'year 0'.

Indeed, so in order for the prophecy to be accurate, one apparently has to add an non-existing year.

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Jabberwock

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Re: Atheists: Explain this stunning biblical prophecy!
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2020, 08:01:46 am »
Indeed, so in order for the prophecy to be accurate, one apparently has to add an non-existing year.

But it is just a small concession in an otherwise awesome prophecy? Well, you also have to interpret evenings and mornings as years and pick out a pretty random battle, but otherwise - just awesome!
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Johan Biemans (jbiemans)

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Re: Atheists: Explain this stunning biblical prophecy!
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2020, 08:47:24 am »
It always surprises me how many prophecy claims require that you interpret the claim in a specific way that can only be known with the benefit of hindsight.  If Israel has have become a nation again after 2300 days as the "prophecy" says, then that too would have been claimed as a fulfilled prophecy (even if it really meant years as is being claimed now).

What if it did not mean Passovers, but meant millennia ?  Then the prophecy has not been fulfilled yet ?  What if it meant weeks ?  Then the prophecy failed.  Etc.

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Harvey

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Re: Atheists: Explain this stunning biblical prophecy!
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2020, 08:54:37 am »
Daniel 8 has a prophecy that the Jews will be exonerated 2300 years after the time Alexander the Great defeats the persians by the river.

Maybe but there are a few problems with this interpretation.

1) Historically speaking the sacrifices did stop in 168 or 167 CE by Antiochus IV Epiphanes. Approximately 2300 days later (evenings and mornings) around 161 or 160 CE his son was killed and the Antiochus reign had come to tragic end.

2) The "evenings and mornings" is referring to actual days but I can accept years as an esoteric interpretation.

3) Control of Jerusalem is not mentioned in Daniel 8, but it's significant

4) The beginnining of the 2300 should be when the sacrifices are interferred with in 168 or 167 CE, but beginning with Alexander is okay for an esoteric interpretation

5) The 1967 date is fine for an esoteric explanation but because of 1-4 I wouldn't say this is highly coincidental. But, maybe. It wouldn't be my argument because there is only one event and very little matches but I cannot rule it out.