TheCross

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Re: The miracle case for Christianity survival
« Reply #30 on: July 28, 2020, 08:30:27 am »

Much of what drove science stemmed from Christian theology.


It seems to me you're not a student of either global religion or history.

No, Islam has had the largest impact on science than most any other religion. Much of Aquinas' thinking is merely an extension of Ibn Rushd's natural theology. Maybe some time have a look at what the Islamic community has done in the advance of science.

Your awareness of a world outside of your credulous Christian bubble is appallingly thin.

I will give you the chance to recant the above since you are clearly speaking from ignorance.

Let me know if you want to go down this road.

Gal 2:20: I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

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Harvey

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Re: The miracle case for Christianity survival
« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2020, 08:37:37 am »
No, you can't hop around like that. The RCC represents Christianity as much as Protestantism, their actions in curtailing scientific advancement as mush as those of the Protestants. Whoever introduced evolution did not so on behalf of Christianity, that much is blatantly obvious. And scientific advancement in the East and under Islam renaissance, while it was suppressed under Christian rulers, is very relevant in order to prove your assertions wrong.

There are no perfect organizations or processes, Mammal. That's why I mentioned Boltzmann. Unfortunately there are no alternate histories available, but what we know for fact is that even with Vatican imperfections and blatant misdeeds the scientific age occurred by Christians having Christian values. I'm sure atheists could have developed modern science too if humans were naturally irreligious (and assuming  that such a hypothetical atheist society had the same Christian influences that today's atheists are blessed with). But, you don't get to have those influences if there is no preceding Christian era. That's the point.

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Harvey

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Re: The miracle case for Christianity survival
« Reply #32 on: July 28, 2020, 08:41:17 am »
I will give you the chance to recant the above since you are clearly speaking from ignorance.

We were just talking about Galileo having to recant his views under threats by the Vatican. Hopefully you don't mean that kind of recant.

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Mammal

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Re: The miracle case for Christianity survival
« Reply #33 on: July 28, 2020, 08:41:47 am »
^ But you are just repeating yourself, which means I have to repeat myself in reminding you that Christianity curtailed scientific advancement and still do.
Fact, Fiction or Superstition?
Thank God For Evolution
The Evolution Of God

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Lucian

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Re: The miracle case for Christianity survival
« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2020, 08:45:42 am »
The thing is that when you consider the extreme unlikeliness of the survival of the Christian religion (I cited 11 miraculous events not even counting post-Roman events), the extreme unlikeliness of the Jews surviving, and then consider the impact that Christianity had on modern science (and let's not even talk about Jewish impact on science) then I think it is quite obvious that we're only an advanced scientific society as a result of miraculous events. Atheists have already used up their Wyatt Earp objection to account for fine-tuning of the physical constants, so that explanation has gotten old.

But if being an advanced scientific culture is miraculously due to the survival of the Christian religion, then it seems one ought to believe in Christianity given that miraculous result. Even if Christianity provided very little input to our being an advanced scientific age, the fact remains that many persecutions ended quickly because the persecutor died, or was captured, or taken ill, or converted to the religion. If it happened a few times I could see why that's not a big issue. But for it to happen so many times in such dramatic fashion requires belief on the part of the skeptic.

As I've said, for someone who isn't a Christian, this language of the miraculous could only amount to the language of mundane improbability. Beyond that, I'm not even convinced that Christianity's survival was particularly improbable: if Christianity was giving people something that nothing else could, it's hardly surprising, given what we know of the power of religious belief, that it would persist in the face of occasional, incomplete attempts to suppress it. As for its contribution to 'science', as I've also said, Christianity and Christians had a significant role to play, but it's far from an exclusive one.

With regards to getting from these observations to Christianity's truth, I'm going to suggest that there are probably better arguments to pursue, at least if you're interesting in persuading those who aren't already persuaded.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2020, 08:54:24 am by Lucian »

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TheCross

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Re: The miracle case for Christianity survival
« Reply #35 on: July 28, 2020, 08:55:49 am »
I will give you the chance to recant the above since you are clearly speaking from ignorance.

We were just talking about Galileo having to recant his views under threats by the Vatican. Hopefully you don't mean that kind of recant.

I mean that the claim of Islam and science, I do not care about topics aslong as it remains historically accurate, the claim that islam contributed to the scientific boom in any way is a historical lie.
Gal 2:20: I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

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Harvey

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Re: The miracle case for Christianity survival
« Reply #36 on: July 28, 2020, 08:56:39 am »
Beyond that, I'm not even convinced that Christianity's survival was particularly improbable.

It's hard for me to understand how you can hold that view.

Quote from: Lucian
With regards to getting from these observations to Christianity's truth, I'm going to suggest that there are probably better arguments to pursue, at least if you're interesting in persuading those who aren't already persuaded.

The argument would be as follows:

1) If the miraculous events of Christian and Jewish survival occur then it is due either to chance or divine providence.
2) If divine providence then God exists.
3) Chance is too unlikely in the case of Christian and Jewish survival.
4) Thus, Christian and Jewish survival is due to divine providence.
5) Therefore God exists.

It seems like an argument that ought to convince an open-minded skeptic.

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Lucian

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Re: The miracle case for Christianity survival
« Reply #37 on: July 28, 2020, 09:12:47 am »
Beyond that, I'm not even convinced that Christianity's survival was particularly improbable.

It's hard for me to understand how you can hold that view.

Why?

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Harvey

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Re: The miracle case for Christianity survival
« Reply #38 on: July 28, 2020, 09:31:12 am »
Why?

It just more than obvious that all of those attempts to persecute both the Christians and Jews ended badly for the persecutor (except for Paul who converted). That obviously should not be seen as a series of coincidences. People ought to believe. End of story.

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Lucian

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Re: The miracle case for Christianity survival
« Reply #39 on: July 28, 2020, 09:41:45 am »
Why?

It just more than obvious that all of those attempts to persecute both the Christians and Jews ended badly for the persecutor (except for Paul who converted).

Well, hardly: you've listed the persecutions of Nero and Diocletian, for example, but neither of those 'ended badly' for the emperor in question, as far as I can tell.

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shoyt

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Re: The miracle case for Christianity survival
« Reply #40 on: July 28, 2020, 09:54:35 am »

I mean that the claim of Islam and science, I do not care about topics aslong as it remains historically accurate, the claim that islam contributed to the scientific boom in any way is a historical lie.

Why is it that religious people talk about things they don't know about and do so with such absoluteness?

You do neither yourself nor Christ any favors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_in_the_medieval_Islamic_world

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Harvey

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Re: The miracle case for Christianity survival
« Reply #41 on: July 28, 2020, 09:54:55 am »
Well, hardly: you've listed the persecutions of Nero and Diocletian, for example, but neither of those 'ended badly' for the emperor in question, as far as I can tell.

Nero died 4 years after the fire and his end was pretty bad. He thought he was going to be killed by the Senate and so had an assisted suicide. His last days sound like Hell to be honest. Domitian was assinated shortly after the time when he was thought to persecute Christians.


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shoyt

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Re: The miracle case for Christianity survival
« Reply #42 on: July 28, 2020, 09:57:06 am »
I will give you the chance to recant the above since you are clearly speaking from ignorance.

We were just talking about Galileo having to recant his views under threats by the Vatican. Hopefully you don't mean that kind of recant.

Dude, keep up ... this comment wasn't even directed at you.

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Harvey

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Re: The miracle case for Christianity survival
« Reply #43 on: July 28, 2020, 09:58:13 am »
Why is it that religious people talk about things they don't know about and do so with such absoluteness?

You do neither yourself nor Christ any favors.


Why can't you at least try to be polite? You'll make this forum into a troll haven if you take that approach.

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Harvey

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Re: The miracle case for Christianity survival
« Reply #44 on: July 28, 2020, 09:59:24 am »
Dude, keep up ... this comment wasn't even directed at you.

I wasn't talking to you.