In short, if justice proper is restorative, then that means evil doesn't really exist and has no actual external consequences for others, so there's nothing to be "recompensed", but that doesn't make sense, because if there's nothing to be recompensed - blameworthiness and praiseworthiness, that is, - then justice doesn't exist.All that restorative "justice" does is to reduce these happenings to - a guy did something we don't like, so we do things to him so that he may change. Retributive justice, on the other hand, claims that there are objective laws and trespassing them carries objective consequences, that are to be applied to all that trespass the law, so that the common good may be restored and recompensed. That's why thieves are imprisoned - so that they don't steal any further. And murderers as well. And frauds. And so on. That's the chief object of justice.So, in retributive justice the laws of morality are much like the physical laws: there are real consequences by behaving in a particular and they really exist. If you ignore the law of gravity and jump from the 4th floor, there are consequences, because gravity is real and you cannot escape that. If you murder someone, then you'll get a punishment, because the moral law is real. So, "justice" isn't simply "let's teach that guy a lesson", philosophically speaking.To use a simple example: if we punish a thief and after his punishment he still plans on stealing, I wouldn't say "no justice was done(because the criminal wasn't reformed)". I'd still say justice was done, because the consequences of trespassing a law were applied.
People changed their religions, due to pressure from the death penalty. People gave up their rights, due to pressure from the death penalty. Saying it doesn't have a deterring effect is beyond inaccurate and ahistorical.
Quote from: kravarnik People changed their religions, due to pressure from the death penalty. People gave up their rights, due to pressure from the death penalty. Saying it doesn't have a deterring effect is beyond inaccurate and ahistorical. Irrelevant groundless assertions since we're discussing criminal justice not forced conversions.Might it be that criminals commit crimes thinking they won't be caught?I get the feeling kravarnik is a frustrated would be hangman!Would you pull the lever, kravarnik, and extinguish a life - and be paid for it?
I don't see any connection between restorative justice entailing there is nothing that is evil it that there are not any consequences for behaving one way versus the other, nor that Retributivism entails the idea there are objective laws.I ask again, what is the point of retribution but vengeance and vengeance, selfishness?The argument that there are consequences to actions doesn't separate one moral theory from another nor show some inherent feature making it superior; the sort of consequences are what matter.
And I never brought up forced conversions
People changed their religions, due to pressure from the death penalty
the Christian view that death penalty is acceptable,
Quote from: kravarnik And I never brought up forced conversions compare withQuote from: kravarnik People changed their religions, due to pressure from the death penalty You need to read your own posts more carefully kravarnik!Quote the Christian view that death penalty is acceptable, Assuming falsely that there is only one Christian view (yours of course!) on the death penaltyThere are quite a lot of laws in the OT that do not apply to Christians.You're talking about this as if it were some abstract philosophical question rather than human beings kicking out etc. dangling from a rope.
... I gave my reasons for why I think the death penalty is Christian and still holds. Of course I'll speak as if my view is true. I believe it. What did you expect? I don't believe in Christian relativism and pluralism. I don't think there are 19283719827 proper views on Christianity. I don't think the death penalty is at the same time OK, not OK, right and wrong, true and false, good and bad, appealing and appalling and so on. I think it's OK, right, true and good, thus I speak as I believe this to be true.
Anyhow, care to address the point and not try to argue that you know better, than I do, what I meant?
I don't think there are 19283719827 proper views
I gave my reasons for why I think the death penalty is Christian and still holds.
FYI, it costs more to execute: https://www.amnestyusa.org/issues/death-penalty/death-penalty-facts/death-penalty-cost/