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kravarnik

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Re: Cringeianity
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2020, 04:17:52 pm »
In short, if justice proper is restorative, then that means evil doesn't really exist and has no actual external consequences for others, so there's nothing to be "recompensed", but that doesn't make sense, because if there's nothing  to be recompensed - blameworthiness and praiseworthiness, that is, - then justice doesn't exist.


All that restorative "justice" does is to reduce these happenings to - a guy did something we don't like, so we do things to him so that he may change. Retributive justice, on the other hand, claims that there are objective laws and trespassing them carries objective consequences, that are to be applied to all that trespass the law, so that the common good may be restored and recompensed. That's why thieves are imprisoned - so that they don't steal any further. And murderers as well. And frauds. And so on. That's the chief object of justice.


So, in retributive justice the laws of morality are much like the physical laws: there are real consequences by behaving in a particular and they really exist. If you ignore the law of gravity and jump from the 4th floor, there are consequences, because gravity is real and you cannot escape that. If you murder someone, then you'll get a punishment, because the moral law is real. So, "justice" isn't simply "let's teach that guy a lesson", philosophically speaking.


To use a simple example: if we punish a thief and after his punishment he still plans on stealing, I wouldn't say "no justice was done(because the criminal wasn't reformed)". I'd still say justice was done, because the consequences of trespassing a law were applied.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2020, 04:32:15 pm by kravarnik »
"And even if you crush my body and drain it 'til the last drop - you can never touch my spirit, you can never touch my soul. No matter how bleak or how hopeless, no matter how hard or how far - you can never break my conation. Tear the will apart from desire." Insomnium - Weather the storm

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shoyt

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Re: Cringeianity
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2020, 11:22:44 pm »
In short, if justice proper is restorative, then that means evil doesn't really exist and has no actual external consequences for others, so there's nothing to be "recompensed", but that doesn't make sense, because if there's nothing  to be recompensed - blameworthiness and praiseworthiness, that is, - then justice doesn't exist.


All that restorative "justice" does is to reduce these happenings to - a guy did something we don't like, so we do things to him so that he may change. Retributive justice, on the other hand, claims that there are objective laws and trespassing them carries objective consequences, that are to be applied to all that trespass the law, so that the common good may be restored and recompensed. That's why thieves are imprisoned - so that they don't steal any further. And murderers as well. And frauds. And so on. That's the chief object of justice.


So, in retributive justice the laws of morality are much like the physical laws: there are real consequences by behaving in a particular and they really exist. If you ignore the law of gravity and jump from the 4th floor, there are consequences, because gravity is real and you cannot escape that. If you murder someone, then you'll get a punishment, because the moral law is real. So, "justice" isn't simply "let's teach that guy a lesson", philosophically speaking.


To use a simple example: if we punish a thief and after his punishment he still plans on stealing, I wouldn't say "no justice was done(because the criminal wasn't reformed)". I'd still say justice was done, because the consequences of trespassing a law were applied.

I don't see any connection between restorative justice entailing there is nothing that is evil it that there are not any consequences for behaving one way versus the other, nor that Retributivism entails the idea there are objective laws.

I ask again, what is the point of retribution but vengeance and vengeance, selfishness?

The argument that there are consequences to actions doesn't separate one moral theory from another nor show some inherent feature making it superior; the sort of consequences are what matter.

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lapwing

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Re: Cringeianity
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2020, 04:16:50 pm »
Quote from: kravarnik
People changed their religions, due to pressure from the death penalty. People gave up their rights, due to pressure from the death penalty. Saying it doesn't have a deterring effect is beyond inaccurate and ahistorical.
Irrelevant groundless assertions since we're discussing criminal justice not forced conversions.
Might it be that criminals commit crimes thinking they won't be caught?
I get the feeling kravarnik is a frustrated would be hangman!
Would you pull the lever, kravarnik, and extinguish a life - and be paid for it?
For by one sacrifice Jesus has made perfect forever those who are being sanctified.

"Those who are still afraid of men have no fear of God, and those who have fear of God have ceased to be afraid of men"
"If the world refuses justice, the Christian will pursue mercy"
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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kravarnik

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Re: Cringeianity
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2020, 05:32:31 pm »
Quote from: kravarnik
People changed their religions, due to pressure from the death penalty. People gave up their rights, due to pressure from the death penalty. Saying it doesn't have a deterring effect is beyond inaccurate and ahistorical.
Irrelevant groundless assertions since we're discussing criminal justice not forced conversions.
Might it be that criminals commit crimes thinking they won't be caught?
I get the feeling kravarnik is a frustrated would be hangman!
Would you pull the lever, kravarnik, and extinguish a life - and be paid for it?

And I never brought up forced conversions. It is safe to say many people in the Roman Empire were "afraid" to become Christians, due to there being a death penalty of being one. Or commit theft. Or murder. Not that someone was actively following them, constantly asking them "denounce Christ, or you die".

It brings up an interesting question: how was it in the past that there were many towns and villages, where no active "policing" was done, but crime was not high? There were barely any "prisons" - usually dungeons of castles. Militias, or garrisons, were mostly stationed at big cities/towns. But what deterred people from acting in a criminal way at large? It cannot only be "virtue", because we don't observe all men being virtuous - as in, most simply had the proper attitude and belief toward justice.


As to your additional comments: man, I am simply trying to defend the Christian view that death penalty is acceptable, as it was given to Noah and from then on that was never changed. I take no pleasure in people committing crimes punishable by death, but if God says there are such crimes, worthy of such penalty, then I don't think I can pretend that this isn't the case.

I am no closeted executioner wannabe, don't worry. I don't work for the State, as it is traditionally understood that the State is entrusted by God to deliver the penalties anyway. I am not a fan of mob executions, for I like actual fair trials with just sentences given.


However, I think it is unrealistic to believe that the death penalty has no deterring effects. I believe fear is an actual coercive force, for even God Himself reveals that if not for love, then out of fear you should obey Him, especially in the parable about the servants and the talents, where the servant that knew his master was a harsh Lord, instead of doing what he's supposed out of fear, if not love, he acted out of cowardice.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2020, 05:50:45 pm by kravarnik »
"And even if you crush my body and drain it 'til the last drop - you can never touch my spirit, you can never touch my soul. No matter how bleak or how hopeless, no matter how hard or how far - you can never break my conation. Tear the will apart from desire." Insomnium - Weather the storm

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kravarnik

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Re: Cringeianity
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2020, 05:39:14 pm »
I don't see any connection between restorative justice entailing there is nothing that is evil it that there are not any consequences for behaving one way versus the other, nor that Retributivism entails the idea there are objective laws.

I ask again, what is the point of retribution but vengeance and vengeance, selfishness?

The argument that there are consequences to actions doesn't separate one moral theory from another nor show some inherent feature making it superior; the sort of consequences are what matter.

My point was against denying retributive justice. If there is no retributive justice, then what does one hold another accountable for? There must be something to be paid. If one says there's no retributive process going on in justice, but it is all restorative, then what is one restoring?

The moment you say evil, then we get into the question about consequences and specifically: OK, if there's evil, then what follows from it? Enter retributive justice: retributive justice judges what follows after committing evil - a particular penalty, that is. Not for the purpose of restoring someone to a better state, but as proclaiming what follows after committing a particular evil: a payment for breaking the order.


So, restorative justice derives from retributive justice, for restorative justice alone cannot stand, because it has to be tied to "restoring" something. If you restore someone back to the "good", then it means he must have been in a state of evil, so if evil is there, then we again return to: then what follows from there being evil and someone committing it? Again - enter retributive justice, which determines or as traditionally called "judges" what follows from a particular evil act.

Because, if it is only about restorative justice, then I don't see what the victims of crime actually get from restorative justice. It is the perpetrator that gains. Actually, the perpetrator doesn't even lose anything, but gets free reeducation, while the victim has to applaud? That is: "here, the guy burnt your house, but we will make sure that we will put our best efforts to make him a better person. Happy?". What if the criminal doesn't reform? The victim that actually lost something doesn't get restored?


Restorative justice does not account for the victim. And if you say "oh, well, the criminal has to PAY for the house, but also we attempt to make him a better person", then that's retributive justice, with the additional of trying to restore the person to a good standing, while making him pay.



And so vengeance is not selfish. Vengeance is saying there are consequences for a particular wrong-doing. Saying that someone raped your daughter and a revenge ought to follow is admitting to evil acts being recompensed by a penalty.  Not all vengeance is self-righteous wrath committed out of delusion and excessive violence. Vengeance in sober-mindedness is what retributive justice is.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2020, 05:47:53 pm by kravarnik »
"And even if you crush my body and drain it 'til the last drop - you can never touch my spirit, you can never touch my soul. No matter how bleak or how hopeless, no matter how hard or how far - you can never break my conation. Tear the will apart from desire." Insomnium - Weather the storm

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lapwing

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Re: Cringeianity
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2020, 10:19:50 am »
Quote from: kravarnik
And I never brought up forced conversions
compare with
Quote from: kravarnik
People changed their religions, due to pressure from the death penalty
You need to read your own posts more carefully kravarnik!

Quote
  the Christian view that death penalty is acceptable,
Assuming falsely that there is only one Christian view (yours of course!) on the death penalty
There are quite a lot of laws in the OT that do not apply to Christians.

You're talking about this as if it were some abstract philosophical question rather than human beings kicking out etc. dangling from a rope.
For by one sacrifice Jesus has made perfect forever those who are being sanctified.

"Those who are still afraid of men have no fear of God, and those who have fear of God have ceased to be afraid of men"
"If the world refuses justice, the Christian will pursue mercy"
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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kravarnik

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Re: Cringeianity
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2020, 08:39:01 pm »
Quote from: kravarnik
And I never brought up forced conversions
compare with
Quote from: kravarnik
People changed their religions, due to pressure from the death penalty
You need to read your own posts more carefully kravarnik!

Quote
  the Christian view that death penalty is acceptable,
Assuming falsely that there is only one Christian view (yours of course!) on the death penalty
There are quite a lot of laws in the OT that do not apply to Christians.

You're talking about this as if it were some abstract philosophical question rather than human beings kicking out etc. dangling from a rope.

Perhaps, I chose the wrong wording. I thought pressure would not translate into "actively being threatened by someone to be killed". In my mind I was referring to, say, Muslim invasions of other countries and how they passively became Muslim, not only due to forced conversions, but also because there were death penalties for being Pagan. So that would naturally sway people toward changing in the direction to AVOID said death penalty. And the fact that in many areas that were not policed, there wasn't high crime, due to death penalty for theft, or murder, or any capital crime. Anyhow, care to address the point and not try to argue that you know better, than I do, what I meant?


Man, I gave my reasons for why I think the death penalty is Christian and still holds. Of course I'll speak as if my view is true. I believe it. What did you expect? I don't believe in Christian relativism and pluralism. I don't think there are 19283719827 proper views on Christianity. I don't think the death penalty is at the same time OK, not OK, right and wrong, true and false, good and bad, appealing and appalling and so on. I think it's OK, right, true and good, thus I speak as I believe this to be true.


Thanks for telling me that the death penalty is applied to people. I thought it is simply ink on paper and sound bites coming out of the judge's mouth. You must think you're clever by spewing this rhetoric in your last two posts, but I think it just goes to show that your entire case for why the death penalty is wrong is trying to make those, who think it is right into some kind of immoral people.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2020, 08:51:54 pm by kravarnik »
"And even if you crush my body and drain it 'til the last drop - you can never touch my spirit, you can never touch my soul. No matter how bleak or how hopeless, no matter how hard or how far - you can never break my conation. Tear the will apart from desire." Insomnium - Weather the storm

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shoyt

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Re: Cringeianity
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2020, 10:03:03 am »
... I gave my reasons for why I think the death penalty is Christian and still holds. Of course I'll speak as if my view is true. I believe it. What did you expect? I don't believe in Christian relativism and pluralism. I don't think there are 19283719827 proper views on Christianity. I don't think the death penalty is at the same time OK, not OK, right and wrong, true and false, good and bad, appealing and appalling and so on. I think it's OK, right, true and good, thus I speak as I believe this to be true.

There is a very wide birth on what Christians have considered Christianity to be. They only have in common the idea that Jesus is somehow central to human well-being. That's it. Particulars are cultural ideations. "The Idea Of Atonement In Christianity" by Rashdall and "Jesus: An Experiment In Christology" by Schillebeeckx are both extensive in charting out those waters.

In Ethics, there must be a moral principle from which a particularization or codification or mandate is derived.

What sorts of moral principles do you see retributive justice fulfilling, how, and could some other form of justice apply equally well?

Notice, whatever you think is important about scripture and what you think is says, it will be irrelevant if you can't seem to identify its moral principles.

In that case, "Because God has said" is not a moral principle and not an ethical argument and, that when this is realized, no theory of ethics need appeal to scripture; either there are our are not moral principles in scripture and if there are, lose the latter and keep the former when discussing ethics.

Finally, what do you take relativism and pluralism to be?
« Last Edit: August 05, 2020, 08:38:42 pm by shoyt »

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lapwing

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Re: Cringeianity
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2020, 03:17:15 pm »
Quote from: kravarnik
Anyhow, care to address the point and not try to argue that you know better, than I do, what I meant?
I don't claom to read your mind, kravarnik. I only go by what you write. In normal English "pressure" and "force" in this context are synonymous as are "changing religion" and "conversion".

Quote
I don't think there are 19283719827 proper views
Neither do I. I have one Christian view: on capital punishment. It's wrong.

Quote
  I gave my reasons for why I think the death penalty is Christian and still holds.
Which added up to:
"as it was given to Noah and from then on that was never changed".
« Last Edit: August 05, 2020, 03:25:11 pm by lapwing »
For by one sacrifice Jesus has made perfect forever those who are being sanctified.

"Those who are still afraid of men have no fear of God, and those who have fear of God have ceased to be afraid of men"
"If the world refuses justice, the Christian will pursue mercy"
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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Aaron Massey

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Re: Cringeianity
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2020, 09:25:22 am »
FYI, it costs more to execute: https://www.amnestyusa.org/issues/death-penalty/death-penalty-facts/death-penalty-cost/
It dosnt have too... aka.. SS einsantz  gruppen.
Proverbs 8:30 "then I was beside him, like a master workman, and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always, rejoicing in his inhabited world and delighting in the children of man."