shoyt

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Re: A pragmatic argument for Evangelism (Pascal’s Wager)
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2020, 02:05:38 pm »
Put it this way. Say there was a lottery with a googleplex dollars reward, but only one in a billion chance to win. Should you spend your entire life savings buying tickets? I think any rational individual would say no, obviously not. So an "expected value" approach breaks down in these kind of cases.

One issue with your analogy is that there is no consequence for not playing the lottery; this is different from Pascal's Wager, where 'not playing the lottery' means you still have to deal with the consequences of being wrong.

There's nothing at stake with god-talk either. At least its more likely that a person's life did depend on the outcome of a lottery then whether there is a god, a god that cares, a god that lets some go to heaven, some to hell, that what we do might have some bearing on that, that we can choose what to believe about anything full stop, that there are afterlives, so on and so forth.

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lancia

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Re: A pragmatic argument for Evangelism (Pascal’s Wager)
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2020, 02:23:54 pm »

Try not make the mistake that there are only Calvinists and Arminians.

I didn't make such a mistake.

Try not to make the mistake of misreading what I wrote. I never wrote or implied that there are ONLY Calvinists and Arminians.

Did you miss my words For example, as I wrote in "For example, under the Calvinist view . . ."?

Did you miss my comment about the Universalist view? Universalism is not Calvinism or Arminianism.

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lancia

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Re: A pragmatic argument for Evangelism (Pascal’s Wager)
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2020, 02:42:22 pm »
That is, that Heaven awaits those who believe and living as Christ leads to the best possible sort of life anyone can have right now.

Yes, that sounds like a good reason to believe now, as would be the goal in evangelism.

But believing now (or in this world) is not the only way to heaven in Universalism, in which post-mortem repentance is a possibility.

So, to the extent that Pascal's wager applies to belief as expressed in this world, it assumes a point of view not shared by all Christian belief systems.

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shoyt

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Re: A pragmatic argument for Evangelism (Pascal’s Wager)
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2020, 02:46:52 pm »
That is, that Heaven awaits those who believe and living as Christ leads to the best possible sort of life anyone can have right now.

Yes, that sounds like a good reason to believe now, as would be the goal in evangelism.

But believing now (or in this world) is not the only way to heaven in Universalism, in which post-mortem repentance is a possibility.

So, to the extent that Pascal's wager applies to belief as expressed in this world, it assumes a point of view not shared by all Christian belief systems.

As far as I know, Pascal's wager is only about the beliefs was have right now.

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lancia

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Re: A pragmatic argument for Evangelism (Pascal’s Wager)
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2020, 02:54:38 pm »
That is, that Heaven awaits those who believe and living as Christ leads to the best possible sort of life anyone can have right now.

Yes, that sounds like a good reason to believe now, as would be the goal in evangelism.

But believing now (or in this world) is not the only way to heaven in Universalism, in which post-mortem repentance is a possibility.

So, to the extent that Pascal's wager applies to belief as expressed in this world, it assumes a point of view not shared by all Christian belief systems.

As far as I know, Pascal's wager is only about the beliefs was have right now.

Yes, and that's one reason why I raised the assumption objection.

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Re: A pragmatic argument for Evangelism (Pascal’s Wager)
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2020, 03:01:07 pm »
That is, that Heaven awaits those who believe and living as Christ leads to the best possible sort of life anyone can have right now.

Yes, that sounds like a good reason to believe now, as would be the goal in evangelism.

But believing now (or in this world) is not the only way to heaven in Universalism, in which post-mortem repentance is a possibility.

So, to the extent that Pascal's wager applies to belief as expressed in this world, it assumes a point of view not shared by all Christian belief systems.

Right, the original Pascal's Wager fails because it doesn't take into account additional live possibilities, such as universalism; it's a form of the Many Gods problem; you've to take into account the consequences and likelihood of being true of universalism, arminianism, etc. in your decision-making process.
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Free at last, they took your life.
They could not take your pride."

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shoyt

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Re: A pragmatic argument for Evangelism (Pascal’s Wager)
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2020, 03:35:06 pm »
That is, that Heaven awaits those who believe and living as Christ leads to the best possible sort of life anyone can have right now.

Yes, that sounds like a good reason to believe now, as would be the goal in evangelism.

But believing now (or in this world) is not the only way to heaven in Universalism, in which post-mortem repentance is a possibility.

So, to the extent that Pascal's wager applies to belief as expressed in this world, it assumes a point of view not shared by all Christian belief systems.

Right, the original Pascal's Wager fails because it doesn't take into account additional live possibilities, such as universalism; it's a form of the Many Gods problem; you've to take into account the consequences and likelihood of being true of universalism, arminianism, etc. in your decision-making process.

Except, no one can will themselves to believe anything.

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Lucian

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Re: A pragmatic argument for Evangelism (Pascal’s Wager)
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2020, 05:37:19 pm »
That is, that Heaven awaits those who believe and living as Christ leads to the best possible sort of life anyone can have right now.

Yes, that sounds like a good reason to believe now, as would be the goal in evangelism.

But believing now (or in this world) is not the only way to heaven in Universalism, in which post-mortem repentance is a possibility.

So, to the extent that Pascal's wager applies to belief as expressed in this world, it assumes a point of view not shared by all Christian belief systems.

Right, the original Pascal's Wager fails because it doesn't take into account additional live possibilities, such as universalism; it's a form of the Many Gods problem; you've to take into account the consequences and likelihood of being true of universalism, arminianism, etc. in your decision-making process.

Except, no one can will themselves to believe anything.

I doubt so strong a view about belief-formation can really be sustained.

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Re: A pragmatic argument for Evangelism (Pascal’s Wager)
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2020, 05:59:45 pm »
That is, that Heaven awaits those who believe and living as Christ leads to the best possible sort of life anyone can have right now.

Yes, that sounds like a good reason to believe now, as would be the goal in evangelism.

But believing now (or in this world) is not the only way to heaven in Universalism, in which post-mortem repentance is a possibility.

So, to the extent that Pascal's wager applies to belief as expressed in this world, it assumes a point of view not shared by all Christian belief systems.

Right, the original Pascal's Wager fails because it doesn't take into account additional live possibilities, such as universalism; it's a form of the Many Gods problem; you've to take into account the consequences and likelihood of being true of universalism, arminianism, etc. in your decision-making process.

Except, no one can will themselves to believe anything.

There are some things that one can do to make one more inclined to believe, such as reading books by authors that support the viewpoint you want to adopt, making friends with people of that viewpoint, demeaning the other side's arguments. It's intellectually dishonest, and not a good way to arrive at true beliefs about the world, but it's a good choice to make from a pragmatic perspective.
If the religion you are trying to adopt (because its likelihood of being true times its promised benefits) emphasized doing good deeds over personal beliefs, then the problem becomes even easier! Now you only have to will yourself to carry out certain actions, not change your entire way of thinking.

Either way, the objection that beliefs cannot be changed (which I somewhat agree with) doesn't affect my original argument that evangelism efforts are worth whatever finite costs they may incur.

"Early morning, April fourth,
Shot rings out in the Memphis sky.
Free at last, they took your life.
They could not take your pride."

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Mammal

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Re: A pragmatic argument for Evangelism (Pascal’s Wager)
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2020, 01:11:53 am »
...my original argument that evangelism efforts are worth whatever finite costs they may incur.
I don't agree. One cannot condone the practice of evangelism by each and every religion and the many negative consequences that follow from that in the hope that one such religion may save souls.

I already showed you this and here are just two contemporary examples (and there are numerous) of evangelism horror stories in Africa,
Why some African governments are clamping down on churches
How Pentecostalism explains Jacob Zuma’s defiance and lack of shame.
Fact, Fiction or Superstition?
Thank God For Evolution
The Evolution Of God

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shoyt

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Re: A pragmatic argument for Evangelism (Pascal’s Wager)
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2020, 01:20:46 pm »
That is, that Heaven awaits those who believe and living as Christ leads to the best possible sort of life anyone can have right now.

Yes, that sounds like a good reason to believe now, as would be the goal in evangelism.

But believing now (or in this world) is not the only way to heaven in Universalism, in which post-mortem repentance is a possibility.

So, to the extent that Pascal's wager applies to belief as expressed in this world, it assumes a point of view not shared by all Christian belief systems.

Right, the original Pascal's Wager fails because it doesn't take into account additional live possibilities, such as universalism; it's a form of the Many Gods problem; you've to take into account the consequences and likelihood of being true of universalism, arminianism, etc. in your decision-making process.

Except, no one can will themselves to believe anything.

I doubt so strong a view about belief-formation can really be sustained.

It seems to not only pan out philosophically but also in cognitive research.

I wonder what would be the wet blanket in that case.

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Lucian

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Re: A pragmatic argument for Evangelism (Pascal’s Wager)
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2020, 01:53:44 pm »

Except, no one can will themselves to believe anything.

I doubt so strong a view about belief-formation can really be sustained.

It seems to not only pan out philosophically but also in cognitive research.

Unfortunately, it doesn't appear to pan out in basic observation of everyday life.

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shoyt

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Re: A pragmatic argument for Evangelism (Pascal’s Wager)
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2020, 02:10:53 pm »

Except, no one can will themselves to believe anything.

I doubt so strong a view about belief-formation can really be sustained.

It seems to not only pan out philosophically but also in cognitive research.

Unfortunately, it doesn't appear to pan out in basic observation of everyday life.

What can you choose to believe?

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Gordon Tubbs

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Re: A pragmatic argument for Evangelism (Pascal’s Wager)
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2020, 02:23:31 pm »
What can you choose to believe?

Whether or not Epstein killed himself.

;-)
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kravarnik

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Re: A pragmatic argument for Evangelism (Pascal’s Wager)
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2020, 03:57:37 pm »
What can you choose to believe?

Does that mean that you believe that your belief that one cannot choose his belief is itself not-chosen, but somehow this was engraved in your mind? If so, doesn't that... make it irrational? Because it, then, isn't according to reason, but according to brutish mental violence done to your mind. For all you know, this belief of yours just "is", and there's no criterion for why it is there - it's just there, inside your mind for no logical reason.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2020, 04:35:16 pm by kravarnik »
"And even if you crush my body and drain it 'til the last drop - you can never touch my spirit, you can never touch my soul. No matter how bleak or how hopeless, no matter how hard or how far - you can never break my conation. Tear the will apart from desire." Insomnium - Weather the storm