noncontingent

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Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« on: July 29, 2020, 11:28:02 am »
It seems odd.

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Harvey

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Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2020, 11:42:50 am »
It seems odd.

I know for myself I reference a great deal of scriptures either in support of my arguments or to highlight some particular issue. Although, scripture debates are often based on irreconcilable differences of exegetical backgrounds so in many instances it is a higher priority to deal with the philosophical basis of the beliefs in question.

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ArtD

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Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2020, 01:41:59 pm »
Maybe because scripture is so ambiguous that it can be used to support both sides of many issues?
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Language-Gamer

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Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2020, 01:53:52 pm »
Maybe because scripture is so ambiguous that it can be used to support both sides of many issues?

You have a catholic background, right?
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Gordon Tubbs

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Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2020, 01:56:58 pm »
To be brutally honest, it's because because the skeptics reject its inspiration, origin, authority, and historicity.

As the prosecutor, it is a witness I ought not call to the stand to change the opinion of the jury.

Luke 16:31.
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noncontingent

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Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2020, 02:25:25 pm »
It seems odd.

I know for myself I reference a great deal of scriptures either in support of my arguments or to highlight some particular issue. Although, scripture debates are often based on irreconcilable differences of exegetical backgrounds so in many instances it is a higher priority to deal with the philosophical basis of the beliefs in question.

Well, if you remember I submitted that the bible doesn't have a single place where the word translated as "soul", namely nephesh is never described as being immortal. That should be the end of that idea, but it never is.

To me, that means their faith isn't in the bible, but in something else and to be a Christian in my view means that the bible is the source of your beliefs. Sure we can argue about how a passage is translated or possibly modified by context, but that's still w/in the world of scripture.

I also see Christians who have dreams and believe in other woo-woo stuff and don't get that what they believe is actually condemned in the bible they claim to follow. They'll say "people had visions in bible times...so why aren't my visions good enough?" - My answer is, If your vision contradicts scripture, you'd better be able to demonstrate that you're a prophet...like how about heading down to the hospital and healing a bunch of people. Then maybe your vision which says I need to wear red socks to get saved will move me to think twice.

Here, though I see a lot of "let x be this statement and y be that statement therefore I'm smarter than you" type of stuff.

Sure you can go there, but all of that is just wind as far as I'm concerned.

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noncontingent

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Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2020, 02:28:55 pm »
To be brutally honest, it's because because the skeptics reject its inspiration, origin, authority, and historicity.

As the prosecutor, it is a witness I ought not call to the stand to change the opinion of the jury.

Luke 16:31.

Why would a skeptic come here? Don't they have anything better to do?

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lancia

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Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2020, 02:50:09 pm »
I use scripture in a lot of my posts. I sort of feel that's necessary because I favorably view Universalism (though I am not a Universalist), and most Christians here consider Universalism unbiblical.

I've even come up with several syllogisms, each of which concludes that tenets of Universalism are true. I have used biblical verses to support each premise of these syllogisms.

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Harvey

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Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2020, 02:52:04 pm »
Well, if you remember I submitted that the bible doesn't have a single place where the word translated as "soul", namely nephesh is never described as being immortal. That should be the end of that idea, but it never is.

But, you didn't give a very good answer to Paul being unsure if he were in the third heaven out of body, and you didn't have a good response to Lazarus and the rich man where the rich man is in Hell after being buried. There's no indication that Jesus was denying an afterlife. If we consider Jewish pseudepigrapha prior to Jesus it is clear that the people in that location and time believed in disembodied souls. Also, here's the OT belief:

Quote
10 Saul replied, “I swear by the living Lord that nothing will happen to you because of this.”

11 “Who do you want me to bring up?” she asked.

“Bring up the ghost of Samuel,” he answered.

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she screamed. Then she turned to Saul and said, “You’ve tricked me! You’re the king!”

13 “Don’t be afraid,” Saul replied. “Just tell me what you see.”

She answered, “I see a spirit rising up out of the ground.”

14 “What does it look like?”

“It looks like an old man wearing a robe.”

Saul knew it was Samuel, so he bowed down low.

15 “Why are you bothering me by bringing me up like this?” Samuel asked.

“I’m terribly worried,” Saul answered. “The Philistines are about to attack me. God has turned his back on me and won’t answer any more by prophets or by dreams. What should I do?”

16 Samuel said:

If the Lord has turned away from you and is now your enemy, don’t ask me what to do. 17 I’ve already told you: The Lord has sworn to take the kingdom from you and give it to David. And that’s just what he’s doing! 18 When the Lord was angry with the Amalekites, he told you to destroy them, but you didn’t do it. That’s why the Lord is doing this to you. 19 Tomorrow the Lord will let the Philistines defeat Israel’s army, then you and your sons will join me down here in the world of the dead.

20 At once, Saul collapsed and lay stretched out on the floor, terrified at what Samuel had said. [I Sam. 28:1-19]

It seems pretty clear that Samuel is a spirit and not a body.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2020, 02:53:57 pm by Harvey »

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Gordon Tubbs

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Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2020, 03:05:03 pm »
Why would a skeptic come here? Don't they have anything better to do?

Perhaps skeptics come here because they value the perspectives of the faithful, and want to find truth with other people.

Is that not the definition of asking, seeking, and knocking (Matthew 7:7)?
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Harvey

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Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2020, 03:09:29 pm »
Why would a skeptic come here? Don't they have anything better to do?

The same reason that all of us spend an inordinate amount of our time at the flat earth society forum  trying to convince them the earth isn't flat.

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lancia

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Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2020, 03:12:47 pm »
Why would a skeptic come here? Don't they have anything better to do?

Perhaps skeptics come here because they value the perspectives of the faithful, and want to find truth with other people.

Is that not the definition of asking, seeking, and knocking (Matthew 7:7)?

Very good point. That's why I'm here.

In addition, I heard stories, on an atheist site, of this superb Christian debater, William Lane Craig, and that convinced me to give this forum on his site a try. That was in 2008--5,805 posts ago.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2020, 04:30:38 pm by lancia »

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kravarnik

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Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2020, 03:48:07 pm »
It seems odd.

I know for myself I reference a great deal of scriptures either in support of my arguments or to highlight some particular issue. Although, scripture debates are often based on irreconcilable differences of exegetical backgrounds so in many instances it is a higher priority to deal with the philosophical basis of the beliefs in question.

Well, if you remember I submitted that the bible doesn't have a single place where the word translated as "soul", namely nephesh is never described as being immortal. That should be the end of that idea, but it never is.

To me, that means their faith isn't in the bible, but in something else and to be a Christian in my view means that the bible is the source of your beliefs. Sure we can argue about how a passage is translated or possibly modified by context, but that's still w/in the world of scripture.

I also see Christians who have dreams and believe in other woo-woo stuff and don't get that what they believe is actually condemned in the bible they claim to follow. They'll say "people had visions in bible times...so why aren't my visions good enough?" - My answer is, If your vision contradicts scripture, you'd better be able to demonstrate that you're a prophet...like how about heading down to the hospital and healing a bunch of people. Then maybe your vision which says I need to wear red socks to get saved will move me to think twice.

Here, though I see a lot of "let x be this statement and y be that statement therefore I'm smarter than you" type of stuff.

Sure you can go there, but all of that is just wind as far as I'm concerned.

I don't think you really get it, mate.


Everyone can open up the Bible and interpret it. Everyone does so. The devil. Skeptics. Pagans. Jews. Christians. Muslims. The point is to look at in its whole and make a coherent view of it.


To once again bring up this example: Saint Athanasius against Arius gave the perfect analogy - the Scriptures are like a mosaic and Christ has given the Apostles the perfect image that this mosaic forms and represents. Which we Christians inherit and that's what separates us from heretics. Heretics take the pieces of the mosaic and construct an entirely different picture, than it's meant to be. Arius did cite the Scriptures. Bogomilists did cite the Scripture. The devil did cite the Scripture. The point is not the citing of the Scripture, but how well you can harmonize the entirety of it into a coherent whole, that both makes internal sense and externally matches your experiences of reality - as far as what's said in the Scriptures is applicable to something you can experience.


It's easy to simply take one, or two, verses and isolate them and then derive a doctrine out of them.  That's not the point. Everyone does that. So, to me this seems like empty rhetoric when one says "well, the Bible clearly settles X(and it happens to match with his opinion, of course)". But this is most accurately translated as "well, my interpretation of the Bible is clearly true".


Other, than this, I do agree with you that the Scriptures are not cited here that much. It's Bayesian probabilities, Greek philosophy and evidentialist arguments.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2020, 03:50:05 pm by kravarnik »
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OrthodoxJew

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Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2020, 12:40:13 am »
It seems odd.
Not odd at all. For the same reason WLC doesn't really discuss the bible much during debates. The debate isn't over the bible but the biblical worldview.
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noncontingent

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Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2020, 06:45:11 am »
Well, if you remember I submitted that the bible doesn't have a single place where the word translated as "soul", namely nephesh is never described as being immortal. That should be the end of that idea, but it never is.

But, you didn't give a very good answer to Paul being unsure if he were in the third heaven out of body, and you didn't have a good response to Lazarus and the rich man where the rich man is in Hell after being buried. There's no indication that Jesus was denying an afterlife. If we consider Jewish pseudepigrapha prior to Jesus it is clear that the people in that location and time believed in disembodied souls. Also, here's the OT belief:

Quote
10 Saul replied, “I swear by the living Lord that nothing will happen to you because of this.”

11 “Who do you want me to bring up?” she asked.

“Bring up the ghost of Samuel,” he answered.

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she screamed. Then she turned to Saul and said, “You’ve tricked me! You’re the king!”

13 “Don’t be afraid,” Saul replied. “Just tell me what you see.”

She answered, “I see a spirit rising up out of the ground.”

14 “What does it look like?”

“It looks like an old man wearing a robe.”

Saul knew it was Samuel, so he bowed down low.

15 “Why are you bothering me by bringing me up like this?” Samuel asked.

“I’m terribly worried,” Saul answered. “The Philistines are about to attack me. God has turned his back on me and won’t answer any more by prophets or by dreams. What should I do?”

16 Samuel said:

If the Lord has turned away from you and is now your enemy, don’t ask me what to do. 17 I’ve already told you: The Lord has sworn to take the kingdom from you and give it to David. And that’s just what he’s doing! 18 When the Lord was angry with the Amalekites, he told you to destroy them, but you didn’t do it. That’s why the Lord is doing this to you. 19 Tomorrow the Lord will let the Philistines defeat Israel’s army, then you and your sons will join me down here in the world of the dead.

20 At once, Saul collapsed and lay stretched out on the floor, terrified at what Samuel had said. [I Sam. 28:1-19]

It seems pretty clear that Samuel is a spirit and not a body.

Three quick things. Paul had a vision and was alive, not dead.
The context w/lazarus is an illustration and is made clear by the context. His use of such imagery is consonant w/his manner of teaching - he used the beliefs, or professed beliefs as in the case of the Pharisees to make a point to them and the crowd who were listening.
The so called Samuel spirit, couldn't have been Samuel even if it were possible that Samuel had an immortal soul. He'd already refused to see Saul any more during life, how much more so in death.

Quite frankly the case is clear. No immortal soul is found in the bible. You are forced to either twist scripture, or graft in extrabiblical greek philosophy and other pagan concepts to shoehorn that in there.