Lucian

  • ***
  • 2552 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2020, 07:32:08 am »


Well, if you remember I submitted that the bible doesn't have a single place where the word translated as "soul", namely nephesh is never described as being immortal. That should be the end of that idea, but it never is.

I always thought dualism was pretty evident in the NT. Mt.  10:28 seems a good example. Then again, I suppose the soul's immortality is another matter.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2020, 07:45:40 am by Lucian »

1

Harvey

  • *****
  • 23841 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2020, 07:49:38 am »
Three quick things. Paul had a vision and was alive, not dead.

What is the point of quoting scripture if the scripture is ignored. Paul says he is not sure it was an in body experience which is what a vision is. If it is out of body then his spirit was transported to the third heaven.

Quote from: noncontingent
The context w/lazarus is an illustration and is made clear by the context. His use of such imagery is consonant w/his manner of teaching - he used the beliefs, or professed beliefs as in the case of the Pharisees to make a point to them and the crowd who were listening.

Except there is no reason to believe Jesus used parables to promote false beliefs. As I mentioned, the Jews at that time had a belief that souls left the body (cf., "Apocalypse of Zephaniah," "2 Esdras", etc.).

Quote
78 Now concerning death, the teaching is: When the decisive decree has gone out from the Most High that a person shall die, as the spirit leaves the body to return again to him who gave it, first of all it adores the glory of the Most High. 79 If it is one of those who have shown scorn and have not kept the way of the Most High, who have despised his law and hated those who fear God— 80 such spirits shall not enter into habitations, but shall immediately wander about in torments, always grieving and sad, in seven ways.
[2 Esdras 7:78-80]

Quote from: noncontingent
Quite frankly the case is clear. No immortal soul is found in the bible. You are forced to either twist scripture, or graft in extrabiblical greek philosophy and other pagan concepts to shoehorn that in there.

No, you are reading into the text and ignoring what is also stated. In case of 2 Esdras it provides Paul's account in I Thess of changing into a spirit body and it includes the Judgment of Lazarus and the rich man. I see no reason why the early church did not hold to this view.

2

noncontingent

  • **
  • 390 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2020, 08:00:59 am »


Well, if you remember I submitted that the bible doesn't have a single place where the word translated as "soul", namely nephesh is never described as being immortal. That should be the end of that idea, but it never is.

I always thought dualism was pretty evident in the NT. Mt.  10:28 seems a good example. Then again, I suppose the soul's immortality is another matter.

Two things in that scripture are destroyed (apolesai) in gehenna: 1. The body, 2. The soul.

Destruction isn't the same as imprisonment. Tartarus is a prison, but not for humans, but for the demons.

In the end in Revelation it says that death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire, both of which are symbols. Death being the state of those dwelling in hades and these are no longer needed because death will be no more, therefore they are destroyed in the lake of fire which represents the second death from which there is no return all things going there are annihilated.

3

noncontingent

  • **
  • 390 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2020, 08:25:31 am »
Three quick things. Paul had a vision and was alive, not dead.

What is the point of quoting scripture if the scripture is ignored. Paul says he is not sure it was an in body experience which is what a vision is. If it is out of body then his spirit was transported to the third heaven.


If you'll recall Paul also failed to be certain at times as to whether he had God's spirit or mind on matters. Here he is also unsure.

"In my judgment, however, she is happier if she remains as she is. And I think that I too have the Spirit of God." - 1 Cor. 7:40, there are also other passages where Paul can't seem to remember where he read or heard something.

As regards these levels of heavens and the ideas which ran about during the first century, there were many books which people read, many old wives tales and myths too. Jesus didn't deal w/issues of canonicity because he wasn't on the earth for that purpose. He himself said that he had many things to tell them that they couldn't bear, or understand at that time. The saducees didn't believe in anything but the five books of Moses, so he uses the things they accepted to make his point..."

See him w/the sadducees...(makes his point w/the five books of Moses)

Sadducees Ask About the Resurrection (Luke 20:27-39)

27 There came to him some Sadducees, those who deny that there is a resurrection, 28 and they asked him a question, saying, “Teacher, Moses wrote for us that if a man's brother dies, having a wife but no children, the man[f] must take the widow and raise up offspring for his brother. 29 Now there were seven brothers. The first took a wife, and died without children. 30 And the second 31 and the third took her, and likewise all seven left no children and died. 32 Afterward the woman also died. 33 In the resurrection, therefore, whose wife will the woman be? For the seven had her as wife.”

34 And Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, 35 but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, 36 for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons[g] of the resurrection. 37 But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the bush, where he calls the Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. 38 Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to him.” 39 Then some of the scribes answered, “Teacher, you have spoken well.” 40 For they no longer dared to ask him any question.

 
Then the pharisees who did believe in a resurrection, but imagined they were better than the crowd..(Luke 16 on...)

14 The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. 15 He said to them, “You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of others, but God knows your hearts. What people value highly is detestable in God’s sight.

So he gives an illustration w/them in mind....their imagined exalted state is changing

Additional Teachings

16 “The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it. 17 It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

18 “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Anyone can see this is an illustration. It's like Jesus saying..."You guys think you're awesome. I tell you, if anyone's going to the Hades of your imagination it's going to be you. Moreover that "Hades" is happening right now. Your favored position has changed. The harlots and sinners are going ahead of you into the kingdom of God."



4

Harvey

  • *****
  • 23841 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2020, 08:35:11 am »
NC, you have to look at what people believed at the time. Like I said other Jewish writings at that time suggest they believed that the soul left the body. Paul wasn't sure his soul left his body but he didn't have a problem if that's what actually happened.

5

noncontingent

  • **
  • 390 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2020, 08:44:14 am »
No immortal soul. Not. One.

6

Harvey

  • *****
  • 23841 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2020, 08:46:19 am »
No immortal soul. Not. One.

Immortal soul is different from a soul that is created and leaves our body.

7

noncontingent

  • **
  • 390 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2020, 09:06:29 am »
No immortal soul. Not. One.

Immortal soul is different from a soul that is created and leaves our body.

Is it the soul, or is it the mind? The mind can see beyond the body and beyond the horizon, but that's not the soul. The soul is the breather. It's inextricably tied to the body. Paul had a vision, nothing more.

8

Lucian

  • ***
  • 2552 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2020, 09:08:13 am »
No immortal soul. Not. One.

Immortal soul is different from a soul that is created and leaves our body.

Is it the soul, or is it the mind? The mind can see beyond the body and beyond the horizon, but that's not the soul. The soul is the breather. It's inextricably tied to the body. Paul had a vision, nothing more.

What verses are you alluding to here?

9

Harvey

  • *****
  • 23841 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2020, 09:09:43 am »
Is it the soul, or is it the mind? The mind can see beyond the body and beyond the horizon, but that's not the soul. The soul is the breather. It's inextricably tied to the body. Paul had a vision, nothing more.

He had a vision in body or outside of body?

10

noncontingent

  • **
  • 390 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2020, 10:13:39 am »
Is it the soul, or is it the mind? The mind can see beyond the body and beyond the horizon, but that's not the soul. The soul is the breather. It's inextricably tied to the body. Paul had a vision, nothing more.

He had a vision in body or outside of body?

Paul's Visions and His Thorn (2 Cor. 12)

12 I must go on boasting. Though there is nothing to be gained by it, I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.
3 And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—
4 and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter.

He had a vision while IN his body of being caught up to the third heaven. In this vision he doesn't know whether he's in the flesh in this vision of the future or not.

11

Harvey

  • *****
  • 23841 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2020, 10:55:23 am »
He had a vision while IN his body of being caught up to the third heaven. In this vision he doesn't know whether he's in the flesh in this vision of the future or not.

If it's a vision of the future then why does he say " I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows."

a) There's no mention of this being a vision.
b) There's no mention of this being a "vision of the future."
c) There's no mention of Paul being unsure if this is a vision of being in body or out of body.

Why do you want to talk about the scriptures if you force your own interpretation on them? Just say you aren't sure. There's contemporary literature in Paul's era where an individual visits the third heaven:

Quote
10 'Have courage, Enoch, do not fear; the eternal God sent us to thee, and lo! thou shalt to-day ascend with us into heaven, and thou shalt tell thy sons and all thy household all that they shall do without thee on earth in thy house, and let no one seek thee till the Lord return thee to them. . . AND those men took me thence, and led me up on to the third heaven, and placed me there; and I looked downwards, and san the produce of these places, such as has never been known for goodness. [2 Enoch Ch 1:10; 8:1]

12

noncontingent

  • **
  • 390 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2020, 11:07:56 am »
He had a vision while IN his body of being caught up to the third heaven. In this vision he doesn't know whether he's in the flesh in this vision of the future or not.

If it's a vision of the future then why does he say " I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows."

a) There's no mention of this being a vision.
b) There's no mention of this being a "vision of the future."
c) There's no mention of Paul being unsure if this is a vision of being in body or out of body.

Why do you want to talk about the scriptures if you force your own interpretation on them? Just say you aren't sure. There's contemporary literature in Paul's era where an individual visits the third heaven:

Quote
10 'Have courage, Enoch, do not fear; the eternal God sent us to thee, and lo! thou shalt to-day ascend with us into heaven, and thou shalt tell thy sons and all thy household all that they shall do without thee on earth in thy house, and let no one seek thee till the Lord return thee to them. . . AND those men took me thence, and led me up on to the third heaven, and placed me there; and I looked downwards, and san the produce of these places, such as has never been known for goodness. [2 Enoch Ch 1:10; 8:1]

It's a vision... Just look at the context...

12 I must go on boasting. Though there is nothing to be gained by it, I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord...

He then "goes on" to discuss these. He refers back to when (likely himself as the context suggests) fourteen years previously he had a vision of the future.

I'm not sure why this is difficult. Daniel the prophet wrote past tense of visions he had with regard to future happenings as well.

13

Harvey

  • *****
  • 23841 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2020, 11:11:18 am »
But, you are ignoring contemporary literature.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2020, 11:15:34 am by Harvey »

14

noncontingent

  • **
  • 390 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2020, 11:53:34 am »
But, you are ignoring contemporary literature.

You know my position. I accept the bible foremost. I can establish that God exists w/o the use of the bible, but unless the bible accurately portrays the happenings of the past truthfully, I can't know anything else. As it is the scriptures, examined as documents are examined by historians stand up remarkably well, something you yourself know. As regards the contemporary so-called Christian writings of today, I find most to be infected with a materialist philosophy which denies the miraculous and philosophically reinterprets everything in scripture through that lens. It's no wonder people are so ignorant of the bible, biblical history, biblical geography or even the confused ideas man has had about the creator over the course of time. I'm continuing to read of the ideas the nations surrounding the events of the bible believed, some of whose ideas may have infiltrated the thinking of some of the characters represented, like Saul imagining he could invoke Samuel through the witch of Endor, though Samuel was dead and asleep in God's "memorial tombs" awaiting his own resurrection. The apostles were often surprised and confused by what they were seeing and in many cases misinterpreting as later events revealed to them. So Paul had a vision. In the context his point isn't to try to teach anything about third heavens but to establish that he was indeed an apostle and no less one than some who were troubling the congregation that he spoke of as "superfine".  As regards the timing it's suggested he was in Corinth 14 years previous to this, making it about 41 CE. Not surprising that he should mention his vision he had while in Corinth, if this is the one because albeit a short reference we do read in the book of Acts that when he was there w/Priscilla and Aquila working as a tentmaker he had a vision. In 18:9 - 9 One night the Lord spoke to Paul in a vision: “Do not be afraid; keep on speaking, do not be silent. 10 For I am with you, and no one is going to attack and harm you, because I have many people in this city.” 11 So Paul stayed in Corinth for a year and a half, teaching them the word of God.

In any case, no immortal soul. Paul had a vision.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzHIqffD9R0

Of course Paul did use language used in the book of Enoch, and I accept that it may provide a background for fleshing out just what is happening in the spiritual realm. My understanding is that elohim is the type of being that exists in the spirit realm, that demons (also elohim-type) are the dead nephilim, who because these were half man-half elohim don't sleep in death, but are rather locked up in Tartarus, but further locked down once Jesus provided the ransom for the sin of Adam which we inherited through no fault of our own. We though are in the flesh and unless and until the transformation Paul speaks of happens w/regard to a select number these sleep in God's memorial tombs, which are just his memory.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2020, 12:03:41 pm by noncontingent »