Harvey

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Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2020, 12:05:35 pm »
I don't think an immortal soul was a belief of the early church. I think they thought of the soul as created and it left the body upon death and went back to God where it remained in some kind of transitional state till the resurrection. This is the view of 2 Esdras which seems to me the biblical view.

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noncontingent

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Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2020, 12:59:46 pm »
I don't think an immortal soul was a belief of the early church. I think they thought of the soul as created and it left the body upon death and went back to God where it remained in some kind of transitional state till the resurrection. This is the view of 2 Esdras which seems to me the biblical view.

We agree on this. This is a case where a lot of speculation as to the metaphysics of what happens comes in and Jesus never bothered to clarify it all any more than he said "read this and don't read that, because you'll just get confused" when it comes to issues of canonicity. I know the first four centuries what people call the church accepted Enoch and some Esdras, but I limit myself to Enoch as it predates these as regards the speculations about the spirit realm.

I see Enoch as filling in gaps w/regard to the events in the days of Noah as well as Babel and the dispersal of the nations. I think Heiser's right on a lot of this second temple thinking and it's influence on the people in the first century. It also corresponds w/a lot of the archaeological/mythological data/stories around the world, but I still feel that the remotest parts of the past are highly compressed. My interests lie in weaving the tapestry of mythologies to see their varied similarities and trying to tie in the oldest archaeological sites w/dates. The dating is a problem in many cases. In addition recent research into DNA dispersal across the world and rates of population growth are another area. There are just too many threads for me to make sense of at this point, but I take as my guide "Let God be true, though every man a liar".- Ro. 3:4

One book I have which goes through these similarities in "Memories and Visions of Paradise" - Richard Heinberg

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Harvey

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Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2020, 01:13:31 pm »
I thought you didn't believe we have immaterial souls?

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lancia

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Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2020, 02:16:57 pm »
Quite frankly the case is clear. No immortal soul is found in the bible. You are forced to either twist scripture, or graft in extrabiblical greek philosophy and other pagan concepts to shoehorn that in there.

For your consideration, I suggest two verses taken together can be used to show the Bible does imply the soul is immortal.

First, consider Matthew 10:28 “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

God is said to be omnipotent, so He can do all that is logically possible. Among those logically possible things He can do is destroy the soul. But what happens to the soul if God does not destroy it in hell? Because this verse implies that the soul cannot be killed by anyone other than God, the soul will be immortal, with regard to the action of beings, if God doesn't destroy it.

(Now this verse is not written in the air-tight manner of a legal document, so it doesn't absolutely and explicitly say ONLY God can destroy both the soul and body in hell. But if it didn't imply that ONLY God could do that, the power of the verse would be largely lost. Thus, it seems reasonable to conclude that the verse means ONLY God can destroy both soul and body in hell.)

Further, the Greek translated as “those who” in this verse can be and is often translated as “what” in the Bible. So this would imply not only that no being other than God can destroy the soul, but also that no other entity, force, or anything of any kind can destroy the soul. Again, the soul is immortal if God does not destroy it.

Second, consider 1 Corinthians 15:42 “So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body. . . .” The body, which includes the soul, is resurrected imperishable, i.e., in a state in which it will not die. That is, the soul, along with resurrected body, is immortal.

Thus, apparently God will not destroy the soul (from 1 Corinthians 15:42) even though only He could destroy the soul (from Matthew 10:28).

And this conclusion would agree with the conclusion that all will be saved because God desires all be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-4) and He accomplishes all He desires (Isaiah 55:11).
« Last Edit: July 30, 2020, 02:50:42 pm by lancia »

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Lucian

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Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #34 on: July 30, 2020, 02:41:05 pm »

Further, the Greek translated as “those who” in this verse can be and is often translated as “what” in the Bible. So this would imply not only that no being other than God can destroy the soul, but also that no other entity, force, or anything of any kind can destroy the soul. Again, the soul is immortal if God does not destroy it.

This sounds strained to me. Do you have any comparable examples?

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lancia

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Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #35 on: July 30, 2020, 03:13:56 pm »

Further, the Greek translated as “those who” in this verse can be and is often translated as “what” in the Bible. So this would imply not only that no being other than God can destroy the soul, but also that no other entity, force, or anything of any kind can destroy the soul. Again, the soul is immortal if God does not destroy it.

This sounds strained to me. Do you have any comparable examples?

Yes, I realize it's risky to delve into an area that I don't know well. But I thought it worth a try.

I don't know exactly what you mean by comparable examples in this case. But I'll guess and try to answer accordingly.

Strong's Number G3588 is translated as "those who" in Matthew 10:28. I found 22 other verses in Matthew, alone, in which Strong's Number G3588 is translated as "what." (in the NASB)
« Last Edit: July 30, 2020, 10:04:40 pm by lancia »

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Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2020, 04:47:44 pm »
I thought you didn't believe we have immaterial souls?

WE don't. Nephilim do. The reason is that WE are native to planet earth and were created to be HERE. They - the nephilim weren't. So they have a part that doesn't go to God's memorial tombs, but instead, go to Tartarus. Think - their father's were elohim-type creatures who mated with earth women. They're hybrids. As regards the future and our resurrected bodies, the sort it will take depends on God. Heiser imagines and I think likely that the divine council we see in Job, had members who deflected - Satan and others. These will be replaced w/glorified humans. The rest of us may have bodies which are perfect and physical - like the original Adam before the fall, or perhaps something enhanced in some way - I don't know.

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Harvey

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Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #37 on: July 30, 2020, 10:31:14 pm »
Then we don't hold the same belief. I hold that humans have souls and that there appears to be some form of consciousness at the point of death but that form of consciousness is only transitional awaiting for the Resurrection. That seems to me to be the view that both Jesus and many in the early Church held. Although, I think it's possible that even early on there were a range of views on this point.

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Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #38 on: July 31, 2020, 08:03:11 am »
Quite frankly the case is clear. No immortal soul is found in the bible. You are forced to either twist scripture, or graft in extrabiblical greek philosophy and other pagan concepts to shoehorn that in there.

For your consideration, I suggest two verses taken together can be used to show the Bible does imply the soul is immortal.

First, consider Matthew 10:28 “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

God is said to be omnipotent, so He can do all that is logically possible. Among those logically possible things He can do is destroy the soul. But what happens to the soul if God does not destroy it in hell? Because this verse implies that the soul cannot be killed by anyone other than God, the soul will be immortal, with regard to the action of beings, if God doesn't destroy it.

(Now this verse is not written in the air-tight manner of a legal document, so it doesn't absolutely and explicitly say ONLY God can destroy both the soul and body in hell. But if it didn't imply that ONLY God could do that, the power of the verse would be largely lost. Thus, it seems reasonable to conclude that the verse means ONLY God can destroy both soul and body in hell.)

Further, the Greek translated as “those who” in this verse can be and is often translated as “what” in the Bible. So this would imply not only that no being other than God can destroy the soul, but also that no other entity, force, or anything of any kind can destroy the soul. Again, the soul is immortal if God does not destroy it.

Second, consider 1 Corinthians 15:42 “So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body. . . .” The body, which includes the soul, is resurrected imperishable, i.e., in a state in which it will not die. That is, the soul, along with resurrected body, is immortal.

Thus, apparently God will not destroy the soul (from 1 Corinthians 15:42) even though only He could destroy the soul (from Matthew 10:28).

And this conclusion would agree with the conclusion that all will be saved because God desires all be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-4) and He accomplishes all He desires (Isaiah 55:11).

Mt. 10:28 - The word is gehenna. Gehenna is the same thing as the lake of fire. Both death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire. Since death isn't substance, but absence (the opposite of living is dead - having no life) it is a symbol in the same way as is hades as is gehenna. These aren't real "places", but states. Death is the opposite of life. Hades is the grave/memorial tombs from which scriptures show there will be a resurrection, and gehenna/the lake of fire is symbolic of annihilation. Jesus is Mt. 10:28 is simply saying satan, the demons and humans can kill you, but they can't remove your hope of a resurrection to eternal life - only God can. No immortal soul here. Also the scriptures show that no one had the right to be resurrected to eternal life prior to Jesus' ransom.

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lancia

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Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #39 on: July 31, 2020, 09:02:46 am »
Jesus is Mt. 10:28 is simply saying satan, the demons and humans can kill you, but they can't remove your hope of a resurrection to eternal life - only God can. No immortal soul here.

Matthew 10:28 says,  “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

The verse specifically mentions the soul. It does not specifically mention removing "your hope of a resurrection to eternal life," even if that is an implication of what is said. So, on the basis of what is specifically said, one can safely conclude that if God, who can destroy the soul, does not destroy the soul, the soul will not die and so will be immortal.

So the issue centers on one big question: Even though God CAN kill the soul, WILL He kill the soul?

The answer provided by (1) 1 Corinthians 15:42 and (2) 1 Timothy 2:3-4 taken together with Isaiah 55:11 implies He will not.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 09:29:40 am by lancia »

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Harvey

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Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #40 on: July 31, 2020, 09:12:32 am »
So the issue centers on one big question: Even though God CAN kill the soul, WILL He kill the soul? 1 Corinthians 15:42 suggests He will not.

If hell is crossing over an event horizon then He doesn't have to anything. There is just no more time after the final refusal.

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Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #41 on: July 31, 2020, 09:40:18 am »
So the issue centers on one big question: Even though God CAN kill the soul, WILL He kill the soul? 1 Corinthians 15:42 suggests He will not.

If hell is crossing over an event horizon then He doesn't have to anything. There is just no more time after the final refusal.

A killed soul is a dead soul.  I'm amazed at the lengths people go to avoid the obvious. Animals are souls, people are souls. Souls are breathers. When breathers stop breathing, they become dead breathers, dead souls. You don't have a soul. You are a soul.

'For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. " - Ec. 9:5

"Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no salvation. When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish." Ps. 146:3-4



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Harvey

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Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #42 on: July 31, 2020, 09:46:45 am »
A killed soul is a dead soul.  I'm amazed at the lengths people go to avoid the obvious. Animals are souls, people are souls. Souls are breathers. When breathers stop breathing, they become dead breathers, dead souls. You don't have a soul. You are a soul.

So, if science is able to duplicate every gene, every neuron, etc. they have duplicated the person? That makes you a materialist.

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Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #43 on: July 31, 2020, 10:00:25 am »
A killed soul is a dead soul.  I'm amazed at the lengths people go to avoid the obvious. Animals are souls, people are souls. Souls are breathers. When breathers stop breathing, they become dead breathers, dead souls. You don't have a soul. You are a soul.

So, if science is able to duplicate every gene, every neuron, etc. they have duplicated the person? That makes you a materialist.

The spirit is not equivalent to the soul. The animating principle for starting a soul is God's spirit. "And he came to be a living soul." in reference to Adam. God's spirit is his active force, his power. I'm not a thorough-going Thomist, but the supporting fabric for everything that exists is God's spirit.

"When you hide your face, they are dismayed; when you take away their breath, they die and return to their dust.
When you send forth your Spirit,[c] they are created,  and you renew the face of the ground." - Ps 104:29-30

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Harvey

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Re: Why is it that most discussions here are scripture-free?
« Reply #44 on: July 31, 2020, 10:07:48 am »
Okay, in your vocabulary we need to put "soul" through an NC translator where our use of the word for soul means "spirit" to you and your word for "soul" means materialistic self for us. The materialistic self (an NC-soul) dies at death, and a materialistic self (NC-soul) is resurrected at the Resurrection with the same soul (NC-spirit) as they had in life. Is that correct?