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ArtD

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A religion not based on stories?
« on: August 02, 2020, 11:01:27 pm »
It seems that all existing religions are based on stories (Moses parting the Red Sea, Jesus walking on water, Mohammad flying to heaven on a horse, Krishna driving a chariot).

Could a religion exist not based on stories? What might it look like?
Euclid's Elements (geometry) isn't based on stories but on reason, but it's not a religious book.
Didn't Spinoza try to develop a religion based on reason?

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kurros

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Re: A religion not based on stories?
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2020, 11:14:51 pm »
It seems that all existing religions are based on stories (Moses parting the Red Sea, Jesus walking on water, Mohammad flying to heaven on a horse, Krishna driving a chariot).

Could a religion exist not based on stories? What might it look like?
Euclid's Elements (geometry) isn't based on stories but on reason, but it's not a religious book.
Didn't Spinoza try to develop a religion based on reason?

I guess it depends on what you mean by "based on stories". For example, Zen Buddhism doesn't exactly seem to be based on stories, since you are basically just supposed to mediate and "experience" reality for yourself until you achieve enlightenment. There are scriptures and things you are supposed to read of course, and I have not personally read them, but I think they are mostly teachings from old Buddhist masters and such. I'm sure there are probably stories of weird miracles and things that old Buddhist masters, and the Buddha himself of course, supposedly did, but I am not sure that any of them are really central to Buddhism, in that you need to believe they actually happened in order to be "proper" Buddhist. But I'm not a Buddhist so I could be wrong.

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Harvey

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Re: A religion not based on stories?
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2020, 11:16:57 pm »
Stories are only means to grasp the divine nature in a relatable manner.

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kurros

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Re: A religion not based on stories?
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2020, 11:52:26 pm »
Stories are only means to grasp the divine nature in a relatable manner.

Well, not only. Christians present many of their stories as historical facts that need to be believed in order to be a Christian.

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Harvey

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Re: A religion not based on stories?
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2020, 12:05:23 am »
Well, not only. Christians present many of their stories as historical facts that need to be believed in order to be a Christian.

Many, if not most, are true.

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kurros

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Re: A religion not based on stories?
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2020, 12:43:42 am »
Well, not only. Christians present many of their stories as historical facts that need to be believed in order to be a Christian.

Many, if not most, are true.

So you say. The point is that they are stories that the religion is based upon. The OP asks for religions that are not like that.

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kravarnik

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Re: A religion not based on stories?
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2020, 05:15:49 am »
It seems that all existing religions are based on stories (Moses parting the Red Sea, Jesus walking on water, Mohammad flying to heaven on a horse, Krishna driving a chariot).

Could a religion exist not based on stories? What might it look like?
Euclid's Elements (geometry) isn't based on stories but on reason, but it's not a religious book.
Didn't Spinoza try to develop a religion based on reason?

It's a matter of the presuppositions upon your criterion is based. If you believe all is blob of atoms that bounce around and interact accidentally, then those "stories" are absurd, because atoms are regulated by fixed physical laws. So, the relations between things described in the "stories" do not make sense.


Why wouldn't a loving God personally reveal Himself to man, who abandoned Him, so that He can save them? Couldn't He actually audibly speak to the prophet - He created audio, He created sound to begin with, so why would it be a problem? Couldn't He actually make it that a fire that does not consume appears and speak to Moses through it - He created fire, the very processes and so on, so why would that be an absurd?


You're trying to put physical and metaphysical restrictions on the "stories" of Christianity from your own worldview, which itself isn't proven, or coherent, to begin with. So, when you read "God appeared as a pillar of fire" you're thinking "what an absurd", due to adhering to a worldview, where all the world is a blob of atoms. But that itself is just presupposing your view.


For example, I can imagine the Garden happening as it is described. And even post-Fall Creation, where the Patriarchs lived 500+ years. Because different set of laws - metaphysical and physical, - were in place. Not so drastically different, but still different. Because God changed them, for the laws changed as the moral state of man changed. And all these displays of God doing miracles through His prophets - parting the waters; Jericho; Sodom and Gomorrah; the manna, just go to show that He can act above the laws, even in spite of the laws, because He is the One proclaiming them.


For the laws are nothing more, but the regulations of the relations between objects and subjects. The law of gravity is how mass relates to space. The chemical laws are how the elements relate to each other. And so on. God simply changed the laws of how these things relate, due to man having changed in how he relates to God.

If these things are possible in the multiverse without God, I don't see how that's impossible in a universe with God. You still get different sets of laws, however, in the multiverse it is predetermined mechanical necessity, while in the Christian universe it is God, a Person, who at will do so, not due to any mechanical and pre-determined necessity.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2020, 05:18:39 am by kravarnik »
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ArtD

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Re: A religion not based on stories?
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2020, 06:03:46 am »
Kurros: For example, Zen Buddhism doesn't exactly seem to be based on stories, since you are basically just supposed to mediate and "experience" reality for yourself until you achieve enlightenment.

From the little I know of Zen, you're right. Interesting.
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noncontingent

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Re: A religion not based on stories?
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2020, 09:03:19 am »
Which of these definitions are you referring to?

religion noun
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re·​li·​gion | \ ri-ˈli-jən
\
Definition of religion

1a : the state of a religious a nun in her 20th year of religion
b(1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural
(2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith