noncontingent

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the apostles laid their hands on.

I'd imagine that might have been Polycarp, who was taught by John.

Acts 8:17-19   

Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit. Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money, saying, “Give this authority to me as well, so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

Outside of Paul, we see no cases of the gifts of the spirit being passed on except though or in the presence of the apostles.

I conclude from this that these miraculous gifts were simply a sign to note to those whom might have not been convinced otherwise that a change had taken place and that God had approved the change from the temple to the spiritual temple, w/Jesus Christ as the High Priest and his followers serving in the earthly courtyards.

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Harvey

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What is the point that you want to discuss? Are you challenging Mythicist claims that the apostles did not exist?

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wonderer

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What is the point that you want to discuss? Are you challenging Mythicist claims that the apostles did not exist?

Undoubtedly he is challenging the views other Christians.  Is that not obvious?
"The world needed that of us, to maintain—by our example, by our very existence—a world that would keep learning and questioning, that would remain free in thought, inquiry, and word." - Alice Dreger

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Harvey

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Undoubtedly he is challenging the views other Christians.  Is that not obvious?

I must be extra dense today because I don't see the Christian controversy. Maybe I'll read it again after having coffee.

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noncontingent

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I was reading through the book of Acts yesterday and I remember considering this years ago, but had forgotten about it since I'm not a pentecostal, but rather a sola scriptura type of person. I think it's interesting. The only case of miraculous gifts being conferred was w/the apostles. When you had the gift, you couldn't pass it on.

The whole thing lends support in my view to the likelihood that average humans would have the ability to recall the details and things they'd seen and heard Jesus say during his earthly ministry. Sure, we have autistic human tape recorders even today, but that's pretty unusual.  It is also useful for clearing away all this contra-scripture mysticism I see among many evangelicals who keep seeking for signs. They often act as jealous as Simon the magician when he asked to purchase the right to pass on gifts. Yet, the scriptures themselves say these will cease...

8...But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be restrained; where there is knowledge, it will be dismissed. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when the perfect comes, the partial passes away.  - 1 Cor. 13:8-10

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Harvey

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Ah, okay. Thanks for clarifying.

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I was reading through the book of Acts yesterday and I remember considering this years ago, but had forgotten about it since I'm not a pentecostal, but rather a sola scriptura type of person. I think it's interesting. The only case of miraculous gifts being conferred was w/the apostles. When you had the gift, you couldn't pass it on.

The whole thing lends support in my view to the likelihood that average humans would have the ability to recall the details and things they'd seen and heard Jesus say during his earthly ministry. Sure, we have autistic human tape recorders even today, but that's pretty unusual.  It is also useful for clearing away all this contra-scripture mysticism I see among many evangelicals who keep seeking for signs. They often act as jealous as Simon the magician when he asked to purchase the right to pass on gifts. Yet, the scriptures themselves say these will cease...

8...But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be restrained; where there is knowledge, it will be dismissed. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when the perfect comes, the partial passes away.  - 1 Cor. 13:8-10

You might be right about cessationism in general, but I think you're using the 1 Corinthians 13 quote out of context. Paul is saying that spiritual gifts (and even knowledge and prophecy) will not be necessary in heaven / the resurrection, where we stand in the presence of Jesus. That's why he's able to say things such as "Now we see but a dim reflection, as in a glass. Then we shall see face to face." Now, on earth, God is hidden and our relationship with Christ is limited. But one day, we shall see face-to-face, and there will be no need to speak in tongues, or prophecy, or to have doctrinal knowledge. When we stand in the presence of Jesus, only "faith, hope, and love" will remain, "and the greatest of these is love."

I don't think this passage is supposed to teach / imply that prophecies, tongues, and knowledge would pass away after the Apostolic Age; the reach is far more distant, implying that the "imperfect" would last until the end of the Earth.

IMO, there isn't anything in the Bible that implies the end of spiritual gifts or miracles; the only reason belief in Cessationism exists is because the spiritual gifts we observe today, in the 21st century, seem very fake and convoluted; it's hard to believe God could be behind all the fake "prophets" and such on TV.
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kravarnik

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The gifts are well alive. I don't know what exactly you're referring to. I think wonderer is right and it is an attempt to undermine Apostolic Succession - to attack RC and EO, - but I could be reading too much into it, so correct me, if I'm wrong.


I myself have read and heard about miraculous healings in some Bulgarian Churches being done and true prophecies being made. You should read about Mount Athos. The quote of Corinthians is also falsely used, as Investigator says. "but when the perfect comes, the partial passes away." When did the perfect come? Do you think the current state is perfect spirituality, so that the spiritual gifts are no more?


The very fact that Saint Paul refers to a man, other than the Apostles, that have been in the Third Heaven, is telling that spiritual gifts, such as vision, are not reserved to the Apostles alone. Never have been.
"And even if you crush my body and drain it 'til the last drop - you can never touch my spirit, you can never touch my soul. No matter how bleak or how hopeless, no matter how hard or how far - you can never break my conation. Tear the will apart from desire." Insomnium - Weather the storm

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noncontingent

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The gifts are well alive. I don't know what exactly you're referring to. I think wonderer is right and it is an attempt to undermine Apostolic Succession - to attack RC and EO, - but I could be reading too much into it, so correct me, if I'm wrong.


I myself have read and heard about miraculous healings in some Bulgarian Churches being done and true prophecies being made. You should read about Mount Athos. The quote of Corinthians is also falsely used, as Investigator says. "but when the perfect comes, the partial passes away." When did the perfect come? Do you think the current state is perfect spirituality, so that the spiritual gifts are no more?


The very fact that Saint Paul refers to a man, other than the Apostles, that have been in the Third Heaven, is telling that spiritual gifts, such as vision, are not reserved to the Apostles alone. Never have been.

Acts 8:17-19   

Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit. Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money, saying, “Give this authority to me as well, so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

This is the scripture that says it's through the apostles. We never see these gifts being given by those to whom it was given.  This does not mean that God can't perform miracles, but that the obvious cessation of these miraculous gifts would cease.

Apostolic succession via Peter is a misinterpretation of scripture. Jesus is the rock on which the church is founded, not Peter.

The keys of the kingdom Peter was given center in on his being used to open the way to salvation to Samaritans and gentiles.

Also, as I've said before these ideas of layers to heaven were ideas and visions, not actual ascensions by flesh and blood humans. Jesus clearly stated that flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2020, 10:21:30 am by noncontingent »

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lapwing

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The Corinthian church (and others) exercised the spiritual gifts but there is no evidence that Paul (or other apostles) laid hands on all those who did exercise the gifts there and elsewhere.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2020, 09:08:39 pm by lapwing »
For by one sacrifice Jesus has made perfect forever those who are being sanctified.

"Those who are still afraid of men have no fear of God, and those who have fear of God have ceased to be afraid of men"
"If the world refuses justice, the Christian will pursue mercy"
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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Lucian

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Apostolic succession via Peter is a misinterpretation of scripture. Jesus is the rock on which the church is founded, not Peter.

I don't know, that interpretation seems pretty fair.

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noncontingent

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The Corinthian church (and others) exercised the spiritual gifts but there is no evidence that Paul (or other apostles) laid hands on all those who did exercise the gifts there and elsewhere.

Can you cite a scripture where the apostles or paul weren't present? I haven't found any yet.

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lapwing

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The Corinthian church (and others) exercised the spiritual gifts but there is no evidence that Paul (or other apostles) laid hands on all those who did exercise the gifts there and elsewhere.

Can you cite a scripture where the apostles or paul weren't present? I haven't found any yet.

What of? Being recorded as receiving the gifts of the spirit, or later exercising the gifts of the spirit?
The latter implies the former.

Some suggest that the Ethiopian eunuch must have received the Holy Spirit as he went on his way rejoicing: Philip was a deacon not an apostle.

Also in Paul's letter to the Romans (whom he was yet to visit) talks about "having gifts" (12:3-8) - this must include the Christians at Rome.
For by one sacrifice Jesus has made perfect forever those who are being sanctified.

"Those who are still afraid of men have no fear of God, and those who have fear of God have ceased to be afraid of men"
"If the world refuses justice, the Christian will pursue mercy"
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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noncontingent

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The Corinthian church (and others) exercised the spiritual gifts but there is no evidence that Paul (or other apostles) laid hands on all those who did exercise the gifts there and elsewhere.

Can you cite a scripture where the apostles or paul weren't present? I haven't found any yet.

What of? Being recorded as receiving the gifts of the spirit, or later exercising the gifts of the spirit?
The latter implies the former.

Some suggest that the Ethiopian eunuch must have received the Holy Spirit as he went on his way rejoicing: Philip was a deacon not an apostle.

Also in Paul's letter to the Romans (whom he was yet to visit) talks about "having gifts" (12:3-8) - this must include the Christians at Rome.

Receiving the holy spirit vs receiving miraculous gifts aren't the same thing. I haven't found a case in scripture yet.

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lapwing

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Which is why I wrote "receiving the gifts of the spirit" not "Receiving the holy spirit"

In the OP you referred to "receiving the Holy Spirit." and "the gifts of the spirit being passed on" synonymously

So which is it as you seem to have contradicted yourself. Are they the same or different?

Your comments on the passage in Romans?
For by one sacrifice Jesus has made perfect forever those who are being sanctified.

"Those who are still afraid of men have no fear of God, and those who have fear of God have ceased to be afraid of men"
"If the world refuses justice, the Christian will pursue mercy"
Dietrich Bonhoeffer