Harvey

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Re: As a Christian, what are your thoughts on Israel?
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2020, 02:37:38 pm »
They are fighting a war they will never win it's truly sad.

If the UN agreed to give a part of Israel to the people of Hong Kong to live outside CCP control and they subsequently took a large part of Israel with their military support from other countries, would you want Israel to ever give up taking their land back?

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momo34532

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Re: As a Christian, what are your thoughts on Israel?
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2020, 04:09:48 pm »
Someone has to update me because I'm not at all updated on politics. Why does being a Christian imply a specific stance on Israel?
Maybe it isn't even politics..Just curious.
Huh? Evengalical are obsessed with Israel... And people who lean right (Christians) are usually supportive...
Ah, Sorry. Stuff like that doesn't come up in my European circles.
oooh. It's a cultural thing here. What's the attitude in europe?
I don't know! Most people are more caught up about us still not having a government and corona. Other than that I have not heard much talk about Israel at all. Then again I'm a highschooler and not many of them care much for these things.

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Fred

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Re: As a Christian, what are your thoughts on Israel?
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2020, 05:08:53 pm »
Orthodoxjew/Noncontingent -

I wish there was a Ghandi-style leader among the Palestinians, because it's clear that violence will not help their cause.  Nevertheless, it's also clear that they have suffered greatly, including a number of historical injustices.  Continued oppression isn't going to result in their acceptance of their situation. 

[url-https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/06/a-day-in-the-life-of-the-west-bank-occupation]A Day in the Life[/url]
Fred

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OrthodoxJew

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Re: As a Christian, what are your thoughts on Israel?
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2020, 05:15:21 pm »
Orthodoxjew/Noncontingent -

I wish there was a Ghandi-style leader among the Palestinians, because it's clear that violence will not help their cause.  Nevertheless, it's also clear that they have suffered greatly, including a number of historical injustices.  Continued oppression isn't going to result in their acceptance of their situation. 

[url-https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/06/a-day-in-the-life-of-the-west-bank-occupation]A Day in the Life[/url]
the wall wasn't built for security??? It litteraly changed everything. My cousins live in jerusalem. Their parents didn't let them use any public transportation so they could come home in one piece.
שמע ישראל ה אלוקינו ה אחד
"Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one."

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bskeptic

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Re: As a Christian, what are your thoughts on Israel?
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2020, 08:37:40 pm »
They are fighting a war they will never win it's truly sad.

If the UN agreed to give a part of Israel to the people of Hong Kong to live outside CCP control and they subsequently took a large part of Israel with their military support from other countries, would you want Israel to ever give up taking their land back?

No one stole anyone's land in the case of Israel.

Various nations in the Middle East were created under a process guided by international law, including Israel. The previous sovereign has *ceased to exist*. There is no one that Israel can "steal the land" from.

And it's not like the international community gave the land of "Palestinian" natives to European immigrants. OK Yes, there has been plenty of immigration to Israel including from Europe. But many Jews are Middle Eastern right? They just came from other parts of the Middle East. It's the same with the "Palestinians". They didn't all live in that territory going back forever. Many of them are immigrants from other parts of the Middle East.

When the Middle East was being carved up, a small piece of territory was given over to *Middle Eastern* (and admittedly including other) Jewish people.

This was just one of the native peoples being given a little bit of consideration in the process.

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bskeptic

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Re: As a Christian, what are your thoughts on Israel?
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2020, 08:41:40 pm »
Orthodoxjew/Noncontingent -

I wish there was a Ghandi-style leader among the Palestinians, because it's clear that violence will not help their cause.  Nevertheless, it's also clear that they have suffered greatly, including a number of historical injustices.  Continued oppression isn't going to result in their acceptance of their situation. 

[url-https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/06/a-day-in-the-life-of-the-west-bank-occupation]A Day in the Life[/url]
the wall wasn't built for security??? It litteraly changed everything. My cousins live in jerusalem. Their parents didn't let them use any public transportation so they could come home in one piece.

Some people don't understand walls. They understand that they need to lock their doors at night. But when it's something on a bigger scale it just confuses them. But, but, we need to build *bridges* not walls!

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kurros

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Re: As a Christian, what are your thoughts on Israel?
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2020, 09:33:53 pm »
They are fighting a war they will never win it's truly sad.

If the UN agreed to give a part of Israel to the people of Hong Kong to live outside CCP control and they subsequently took a large part of Israel with their military support from other countries, would you want Israel to ever give up taking their land back?

No one stole anyone's land in the case of Israel.

Various nations in the Middle East were created under a process guided by international law, including Israel. The previous sovereign has *ceased to exist*. There is no one that Israel can "steal the land" from.

And it's not like the international community gave the land of "Palestinian" natives to European immigrants. OK Yes, there has been plenty of immigration to Israel including from Europe. But many Jews are Middle Eastern right? They just came from other parts of the Middle East. It's the same with the "Palestinians". They didn't all live in that territory going back forever. Many of them are immigrants from other parts of the Middle East.

When the Middle East was being carved up, a small piece of territory was given over to *Middle Eastern* (and admittedly including other) Jewish people.

This was just one of the native peoples being given a little bit of consideration in the process.

A home was to be made for "the Jewish people" *in* British Palestine. They never intended to hand over the entire region to a Jewish state. That's just what went down via military conflict in the power vacuum that was left when the British left the region. I have no specific opposition to the situation, in some sense "all is fair in love and war", but let's not pretend it was some sort of completely fair and benevolent system created for the benefit of the local people.

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noncontingent

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Re: As a Christian, what are your thoughts on Israel?
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2020, 11:01:23 am »
I'm reminded of Isaac and his prosperity and how the philistines were jealous and instead of figuring out what he was doing and following his example, they stopped up his wells, argued with him over the new wells he dug, and dug, and dug. It seems this same spirit exists in all those who have it in for a man, a group of people or a nation who act w/wisdom. Instead of making straight paths for their feet, they sow discord for themselves and others. 

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Fred

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Re: As a Christian, what are your thoughts on Israel?
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2020, 03:25:32 pm »
Orthodoxjew/Noncontingent -

I wish there was a Ghandi-style leader among the Palestinians, because it's clear that violence will not help their cause.  Nevertheless, it's also clear that they have suffered greatly, including a number of historical injustices.  Continued oppression isn't going to result in their acceptance of their situation. 

[url-https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/06/a-day-in-the-life-of-the-west-bank-occupation]A Day in the Life[/url]
the wall wasn't built for security???
That's all you took from the article?!  Life in occupied Palestinian territory is not a bowl of cherries. 

I'm sure security was the initial, and continuing primary, driver for building the wall - but it has clearly also been used for grabbing more land - just as the settlements have.

Fred

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Harvey

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Re: As a Christian, what are your thoughts on Israel?
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2020, 03:50:08 pm »
I'm reminded of Isaac and his prosperity and how the philistines were jealous and instead of figuring out what he was doing and following his example, they stopped up his wells, argued with him over the new wells he dug, and dug, and dug. It seems this same spirit exists in all those who have it in for a man, a group of people or a nation who act w/wisdom. Instead of making straight paths for their feet, they sow discord for themselves and others.

How would you feel if your land was taken from you by a UN resolution and when you tried to force the offending party out, they were helped by a Superpower. As a supporter of democracy I believe we need to stick with Israel, after all it was the UN that made the mistake of not giving the land back to the Palestinians. But, make no mistake, they have a right to be angry just like other groups such as Native Americans and African Americans have a right to be angry how matters were settled.

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Fred

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Re: As a Christian, what are your thoughts on Israel?
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2020, 05:13:16 pm »
How would you feel if your land was taken from you by a UN resolution and when you tried to force the offending party out, they were helped by a Superpower. As a supporter of democracy I believe we need to stick with Israel, after all it was the UN that made the mistake of not giving the land back to the Palestinians. But, make no mistake, they have a right to be angry just like other groups such as Native Americans and African Americans have a right to be angry how matters were settled.
Thumbs up.  We found something we agree on :-)
Fred

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bskeptic

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Re: As a Christian, what are your thoughts on Israel?
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2020, 07:23:44 pm »
They are fighting a war they will never win it's truly sad.

If the UN agreed to give a part of Israel to the people of Hong Kong to live outside CCP control and they subsequently took a large part of Israel with their military support from other countries, would you want Israel to ever give up taking their land back?

No one stole anyone's land in the case of Israel.

Various nations in the Middle East were created under a process guided by international law, including Israel. The previous sovereign has *ceased to exist*. There is no one that Israel can "steal the land" from.

And it's not like the international community gave the land of "Palestinian" natives to European immigrants. OK Yes, there has been plenty of immigration to Israel including from Europe. But many Jews are Middle Eastern right? They just came from other parts of the Middle East. It's the same with the "Palestinians". They didn't all live in that territory going back forever. Many of them are immigrants from other parts of the Middle East.

When the Middle East was being carved up, a small piece of territory was given over to *Middle Eastern* (and admittedly including other) Jewish people.

This was just one of the native peoples being given a little bit of consideration in the process.

A home was to be made for "the Jewish people" *in* British Palestine. They never intended to hand over the entire region to a Jewish state. That's just what went down via military conflict in the power vacuum that was left when the British left the region. I have no specific opposition to the situation, in some sense "all is fair in love and war", but let's not pretend it was some sort of completely fair and benevolent system created for the benefit of the local people.

Firstly, when the British "left the region", it was a failure/abandonment of the international community (which Britain represented in that territory) to maintain law and order.

The international community *ran away* when things got tough. "This is too difficult for us, we're out of here". Well OK, but then you don't have much standing to be critical of Israel afterwards.

Why did they run away? Because of *Arab aggression*. It was the Arab side that wanted to gamble on war. Well if you gamble on war, and lose, you aren't going to get such a good deal as if you did things peacefully. You can't wage war, lose the war, and then cry about being at a disadvantage afterwards.

And a Jewish state wasn't created from the "entire region". I believe Jordan was created on a big chunk of the land, off the top of my head. So Jews didn't get all of it by any means.

Then there is the Palestinian territories where they have self-rule and get to self-determine how they want to live. Not yet a proper state, but they already have self-rule right? If they were peaceful about it, they likely could be a recognized state a long time ago.

But anyway, as the Palestinians have self-rule, that's another chunk of the land that isn't part of a "Jewish state".

So Israel didn't take all of the land for a Jewish state, it just took some of it, as was always planned. If Israel got in a better position by winning a war, well maybe the Arab side should have done things peacefully then!

If the Arab side is aggressive and gambles on war, and then they lose, they aren't going to get the best deal.

If the international community runs away from the situation, then they lose their standing to be talking about Jerusalem or the West Bank. If that stuff was important, then they should have stayed to impose peace, and the peaceful creation of an Israeli and Palestinian state. If you get too scared and run away, you can't then complain about how Israel handles the situation after imposing the security that the international community failed to do.

Now is 20th century politics "completely fair" to the people? Probably not, as politics doesn't tend to be completely fair on people.

But a Jewish state in the Middle East was a fair principle, as these things go. Jews certainly wouldn't be safe in Muslim nations, as they had long been persecuted, and it's part of Islamic law that the Muslims have to persecute the Jews and Christians etc.

Fairness here, I think, is that they get some self-government in the Middle East so that they will not be victims in Muslim lands.

 
« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 07:28:29 pm by bskeptic »

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Harvey

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Re: As a Christian, what are your thoughts on Israel?
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2020, 10:38:12 pm »
My understanding is that in 1919 about 90% of Palestine were Palestinian. The powers of the world ignored this and basically stole the land from them. It's sad. Very sad. It's not as bad as what happened to the Native Americans, not as bad as what happened to the Africans that were brought under slavery to the US, but it's a stain on the Western nations on how they handled it. It's human nature to justify our wrongs to protect from feeling bad about ourselves, I get that. But, we need to realize that the Palestinians didn't have a voice and lost out. Perhaps naively they thought they should take things in their own hands (like Crazy Horse), but they were wrong and lost out like the Native Americans. I prefer Israel being there (just like I prefer North America being in control of the Anglo-Saxon invaders), but let's not kid ourselves on who's rights were trampled on. It's sad.

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kurros

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Re: As a Christian, what are your thoughts on Israel?
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2020, 04:19:51 am »
They are fighting a war they will never win it's truly sad.

If the UN agreed to give a part of Israel to the people of Hong Kong to live outside CCP control and they subsequently took a large part of Israel with their military support from other countries, would you want Israel to ever give up taking their land back?

No one stole anyone's land in the case of Israel.

Various nations in the Middle East were created under a process guided by international law, including Israel. The previous sovereign has *ceased to exist*. There is no one that Israel can "steal the land" from.

And it's not like the international community gave the land of "Palestinian" natives to European immigrants. OK Yes, there has been plenty of immigration to Israel including from Europe. But many Jews are Middle Eastern right? They just came from other parts of the Middle East. It's the same with the "Palestinians". They didn't all live in that territory going back forever. Many of them are immigrants from other parts of the Middle East.

When the Middle East was being carved up, a small piece of territory was given over to *Middle Eastern* (and admittedly including other) Jewish people.

This was just one of the native peoples being given a little bit of consideration in the process.

A home was to be made for "the Jewish people" *in* British Palestine. They never intended to hand over the entire region to a Jewish state. That's just what went down via military conflict in the power vacuum that was left when the British left the region. I have no specific opposition to the situation, in some sense "all is fair in love and war", but let's not pretend it was some sort of completely fair and benevolent system created for the benefit of the local people.

Firstly, when the British "left the region", it was a failure/abandonment of the international community (which Britain represented in that territory) to maintain law and order.

The international community *ran away* when things got tough. "This is too difficult for us, we're out of here". Well OK, but then you don't have much standing to be critical of Israel afterwards.

Why did they run away? Because of *Arab aggression*. It was the Arab side that wanted to gamble on war. Well if you gamble on war, and lose, you aren't going to get such a good deal as if you did things peacefully. You can't wage war, lose the war, and then cry about being at a disadvantage afterwards.

And a Jewish state wasn't created from the "entire region". I believe Jordan was created on a big chunk of the land, off the top of my head. So Jews didn't get all of it by any means.

Then there is the Palestinian territories where they have self-rule and get to self-determine how they want to live. Not yet a proper state, but they already have self-rule right? If they were peaceful about it, they likely could be a recognized state a long time ago.

But anyway, as the Palestinians have self-rule, that's another chunk of the land that isn't part of a "Jewish state".

So Israel didn't take all of the land for a Jewish state, it just took some of it, as was always planned. If Israel got in a better position by winning a war, well maybe the Arab side should have done things peacefully then!

If the Arab side is aggressive and gambles on war, and then they lose, they aren't going to get the best deal.

If the international community runs away from the situation, then they lose their standing to be talking about Jerusalem or the West Bank. If that stuff was important, then they should have stayed to impose peace, and the peaceful creation of an Israeli and Palestinian state. If you get too scared and run away, you can't then complain about how Israel handles the situation after imposing the security that the international community failed to do.

Now is 20th century politics "completely fair" to the people? Probably not, as politics doesn't tend to be completely fair on people.

But a Jewish state in the Middle East was a fair principle, as these things go. Jews certainly wouldn't be safe in Muslim nations, as they had long been persecuted, and it's part of Islamic law that the Muslims have to persecute the Jews and Christians etc.

Fairness here, I think, is that they get some self-government in the Middle East so that they will not be victims in Muslim lands.

I summarised the history earlier in the thread, you have various things wrong here. In particular the West Bank was controlled by Jordan for 17 years after the Arab-Israeli war that basically created Israel. Not by any dictum of the international community, by war. And Israel occupied this territory in the Six Days War many years later. Again I don't entirely fault them for doing so since, although they fired the first shots, they weren't entirely responsible for the tense situation that led to the war. Anyway the local people were somewhat caught in the middle, and suddenly became under Israeli rule. I pity them as far as that goes, though I agree they have done a lot to make their situation even worse for themselves since then.

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noncontingent

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Re: As a Christian, what are your thoughts on Israel?
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2020, 07:31:57 am »
My understanding is that in 1919 about 90% of Palestine were Palestinian. The powers of the world ignored this and basically stole the land from them. It's sad. Very sad. It's not as bad as what happened to the Native Americans, not as bad as what happened to the Africans that were brought under slavery to the US, but it's a stain on the Western nations on how they handled it. It's human nature to justify our wrongs to protect from feeling bad about ourselves, I get that. But, we need to realize that the Palestinians didn't have a voice and lost out. Perhaps naively they thought they should take things in their own hands (like Crazy Horse), but they were wrong and lost out like the Native Americans. I prefer Israel being there (just like I prefer North America being in control of the Anglo-Saxon invaders), but let's not kid ourselves on who's rights were trampled on. It's sad.

All those 1919'ers are dead. The "stole our land" argument is like when someone uses their brains to clear a field or a swamp see it's value and create wealth in the process and some other jealous tarantula comes out of its hole and complains that the cleared field which NOW has value is his. In 1919 there was little value. The jews brought all that in and made something out of that place. The arabs had it for forever and got nothing done. They have at least what they had in 1919. If they want more, they can stop fighting, learn something useful and become civilized. No one likes seeing adults behaving like deranged mentally ill children running with scissors.