Until God sent his son, man dreamed of a redeemer, but who or what could redeem what Adam lost?
"Adam was perfect until he sinned"Then he wasn't perfect, was he?
These failures Satan argues as God's failures, failures in construction and failures all around. God is himself flawed, from Satan's standpoint and so is his creation
Your perspective seems internally coherent and scripturally defensible, except for the part where you say that Jesus as the preexistent word was created by God. Where’s the scriptural support for that?Also not sure about if Jesus knew of who He was before His baptism; the Gospels are vague enough about that that I suppose you could justifiably believe either way.
Quote from: ChristianInvestigator on September 24, 2020, 10:49:18 amYour perspective seems internally coherent and scripturally defensible, except for the part where you say that Jesus as the preexistent word was created by God. Where’s the scriptural support for that?Also not sure about if Jesus knew of who He was before His baptism; the Gospels are vague enough about that that I suppose you could justifiably believe either way.Many scriptures point to this. His existence on earth, his prayers to his father. His submission to God to death on the cross. You know, "let not my will, but yours take place". Colossians speak of him as being the image of the invisible God (we too are made in Gods image), the firstborn of all creation. God resurrected him from the dead. On and on. Jesus was before in heaven a separate creation, but had a special relationship like no other and even though it's not definitive, I believe the personification of wisdom in proverbs is also speaking of Jesus in his prehuman existence as elohim, or God, but not the almighty God, but the master worker, God's son through whom all other things were created.Now we see him exalted by God to his right hand awaiting God to give him the go ahead to go and complete the conquest.
I'd suggest that it's possible what you say, but I'm disinclined to believe it because the language of Father and Son has the natural sense of one existing before the other.
It also makes little sense to me in terms of the ransom. In my view God put it all on the line by allowing his son to go on this dangerous mission and in so doing demonstrated that Satan was really the gross liar that he became and that Adam could have stood fast. God really did risk losing his son and the son really risked losing his father. We accept Jesus and he becomes to us the second Adam by way of adoption and have the hope of eternal life.
Will it be heaven on earth or earth in heaven or will the two entwine in some manner? It's not clear, but the idea of New Jerusalem coming down and it's description suggests there will be a place of meeting between the physical realms and the spiritual realms. What will be the next project? What will mankind become? Who really knows? I know I'd like to be there to find out.
Jesus gets "worshipped", but which words are used and in what context?https://eschaton.org/Worship/3-Greek-Words-for-Worship.pdf
Jesus was empowered to forgive sins. How? (see Col. 1:19)
(Col 1:19) Thus, all fullness dwells in Christ because it "pleased the Father" (KJ, Dy), because it was "by God's own choice." (NE) So the fullness of "divinity" that dwells in Christ is his as a result of a decision made by the Father. Further showing that having such "fullness" does not make Christ the same person as Almighty God is the fact that Paul later speaks of Christ as being "seated at the right hand of God."-Col 3:1.
Jesus is God, however people use this one scripture and exclude all the other scriptures which ought to modify ones understanding about what sort of God Jesus is. Is it a shell game where an adjective is used as a noun of identity? Mike Heiser makes this point w.regard to elohim. The bible uses "God" multiple times as I previously mentioned. Some times it's God almighty, sometimes its a spirit, sometimes a demon. Elohim is a type of life. A spirit form of life. Jesus as the word was with god and was elohim. Nothing wrong with this.
You totally misread me on the atonement, because this is exactly what Jesus did, only it was Jesus as a separate being who in prehuman form took on this mission to pay that price.
It was to be like for like. God is not a like for like. God cannot be tempted. God's will is self-consistent. God has no soliloquys w/himself. God could never fail. In the situation you described, if it were God himself and not his Son as a fully separate being with a fully separate will, it would make a lot less sense.
God could simply have cancelled the debt. In fact the whole ransom has been ridiculed by atheists because of this self-inflicted wound. It's greek philosophy, the sort of thing that Paul warned about in Colossians. 2:8 "See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ."
Pretty much any time you get a point for point quoting and refuting, you can be sure you're in the middle of a debate.