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kurros

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Re: Agnostics: Are you afraid of hell?
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2020, 08:55:22 pm »
I started studying the bible as an atheist to defend myself against Christians.

If you know what the bible says about the soul - nephesh, or psyche, you'll see that like nephesh means "a breather" all living things that breathe .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephesh

You don't find immortal souls in the bible.

No immortal soul, zero possibility of eternal torment ala the cartoon hell of orthodoxy.

All the other uses of these symbols, are just that, symbols.

When you die, you're dead. That what science says (for the most part) and that's what the bible says.

So no heaven then? And Jesus is also 100% dead?

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noncontingent

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Re: Agnostics: Are you afraid of hell?
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2020, 09:14:49 pm »
I started studying the bible as an atheist to defend myself against Christians.

If you know what the bible says about the soul - nephesh, or psyche, you'll see that like nephesh means "a breather" all living things that breathe .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephesh

You don't find immortal souls in the bible.

No immortal soul, zero possibility of eternal torment ala the cartoon hell of orthodoxy.

All the other uses of these symbols, are just that, symbols.

When you die, you're dead. That what science says (for the most part) and that's what the bible says.

So no heaven then? And Jesus is also 100% dead?

Heaven yes. Jesus died and was resurrected. But no eternal torment. God is not worse than the Nazis. Life is a gift. Pagan concepts of eternal souls and hellfire make that a lie.

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kurros

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Re: Agnostics: Are you afraid of hell?
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2020, 10:25:16 pm »
I started studying the bible as an atheist to defend myself against Christians.

If you know what the bible says about the soul - nephesh, or psyche, you'll see that like nephesh means "a breather" all living things that breathe .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephesh

You don't find immortal souls in the bible.

No immortal soul, zero possibility of eternal torment ala the cartoon hell of orthodoxy.

All the other uses of these symbols, are just that, symbols.

When you die, you're dead. That what science says (for the most part) and that's what the bible says.

So no heaven then? And Jesus is also 100% dead?

Heaven yes. Jesus died and was resurrected. But no eternal torment. God is not worse than the Nazis. Life is a gift. Pagan concepts of eternal souls and hellfire make that a lie.

Not sure how the absence of an eternal soul makes Hell impossible if Heaven remains possible. If you can be "resurrected" or whatever into Heaven then it seems to follow that the same can apply to Hell.

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ChristianInvestigator

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Re: Agnostics: Are you afraid of hell?
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2020, 12:49:21 am »
To be honest, I think people who believe in hell scare too easily.
It MIGHT be different if God had provided CLEAR INSTRUCTIONS on how to avoid it but he did not.
And don't say "the Bible says" "for God so loved the world . . . " because it's actually ONE PAGE OF THE BIBLE SAYS
Other pages say other things.
So even Christian denominations can't agree on what you need to do or believe to avoid hell.
Sure, any individual believer can with great confidence regurgitate what they've been taught but there will be other believers who with equal confidence disagree.
Hell is a boogeyman for the fearful.

So you're arguing that, since it is unclear what actions / attitudes will get one into Heaven or Hell, one should just give up the battle and not worry about it? That doesn't necessarily follow, especially because the disagreement among Bible passages and between denominations is not as serious as your objection implies.
"This year, though I'm far from home
In Trench I'm not alone.
These faces facing me,
They know... what I mean."

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kravarnik

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Re: Agnostics: Are you afraid of hell?
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2020, 05:21:48 am »
I started studying the bible as an atheist to defend myself against Christians.

If you know what the bible says about the soul - nephesh, or psyche, you'll see that like nephesh means "a breather" all living things that breathe .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephesh

You don't find immortal souls in the bible.

No immortal soul, zero possibility of eternal torment ala the cartoon hell of orthodoxy.

All the other uses of these symbols, are just that, symbols.

When you die, you're dead. That what science says (for the most part) and that's what the bible says.

So no heaven then? And Jesus is also 100% dead?

Heaven yes. Jesus died and was resurrected. But no eternal torment. God is not worse than the Nazis. Life is a gift. Pagan concepts of eternal souls and hellfire make that a lie.

Not sure how the absence of an eternal soul makes Hell impossible if Heaven remains possible. If you can be "resurrected" or whatever into Heaven then it seems to follow that the same can apply to Hell.

And here we have another episode of skeptics and atheists understanding Christian doctrine better, than some Protestants.


Sometimes I feel like Protestants take heretical, or heterodox, positions on particular Christian matters only out of spite against skeptics, who use the orthodox position as an objection. That is: instead of understanding the actual defense of the orthodox position, they prefer to actually take a heretical one, or heterodox one, only so that they can contradict and undercut the skeptic/atheist. But that's just a speculation, or a guess, of mine.


Kurros, you're right on the money, because the large part of Christianity, and Christian denominations, actually do maintain that in the resurrection everyone is resurrected into eternity. And, probably incidentally so, you also hint at the proper reasoning behind why souls are immortal. Most heresies are problematic - whether those be eschatological, or Christological, or soteriological, - because they damage Salvation and make it impossible.

If Christ is creation, then He cannot save us and cannot be a Savior. If souls are not immortal, then there's no Salvation. It's really simple, but Protestants enter this land of relativism, where God applies different laws to different people, but the Christian believes there's absolute Truth, thus absolute Laws. God doesn't change His principles depending on the person He deals with(a wicked person, or a righteous person). He resurrects both into eternity. He damns, and saves, either on the basis of the same Law. Notice, when Christ condemns and praises the wicked and the righteous respectively, He doesn't use different law for each, but "when you saw Me hungry, you fed Me" and so on. Because God's Word is Eternal and Unchangeable, and not relative and subjective.

"Yeah, this guy here I obliterate. This guy here I torture for a bit on Earth and then obliterate. Then this guy here, I will send him some suffering, but resurrect him into eternity. And this guy here, Enoch was his name, right Gabriel? Yeah, about him - just take him into Heaven without tasting death. And that guy Lazarus, who had some issues with some rich man.... yeah, get Lazarus' butt up here with Me and have that rich man burn and then die."

« Last Edit: October 03, 2020, 05:25:07 am by kravarnik »
"And even if you crush my body and drain it 'til the last drop - you can never touch my spirit, you can never touch my soul. No matter how bleak or how hopeless, no matter how hard or how far - you can never break my conation. Tear the will apart from desire." Insomnium - Weather the storm

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noncontingent

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Re: Agnostics: Are you afraid of hell?
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2020, 06:39:57 am »
k, you don't understand the ransom at all.  See my post on the ransom.

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ArtD

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Re: Agnostics: Are you afraid of hell?
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2020, 08:24:40 am »
ArtD:
To be honest, I think people who believe in hell scare too easily.
It MIGHT be different if God had provided CLEAR INSTRUCTIONS on how to avoid it but he did not.
And don't say "the Bible says" "for God so loved the world . . . " because it's actually ONE PAGE OF THE BIBLE SAYS
Other pages say other things.
So even Christian denominations can't agree on what you need to do or believe to avoid hell.
Sure, any individual believer can with great confidence regurgitate what they've been taught but there will be other believers who with equal confidence disagree.
Hell is a boogeyman for the fearful.

ChristianInvestigator:
So you're arguing that, since it is unclear what actions / attitudes will get one into Heaven or Hell, one should just give up the battle and not worry about it? That doesn't necessarily follow, especially because the disagreement among Bible passages and between denominations is not as serious as your objection implies.

I’m arguing that if Hell really existed, it would be impossible for a good God not to give us clear instructions how to avoid it. And I’m not implying serious disagreement, I’m specifically saying it: “Christian denominations can't agree on what you need to do or believe to avoid hell.”

 Hell is a boogeyman for the fearful.
ScienceAsNaturalTheology.org

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noncontingent

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Re: Agnostics: Are you afraid of hell?
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2020, 08:34:30 am »
...someone please tell me what the point of torturing people for all eternity accomplishes. I mean the Catholic concept (though unbiblical) of purgatory made more sense because you'd do your stint in stir and ostensibly, if there was some sort of rehab program, the celestial parole board would let you go. Hell makes it like you have no hope, just endless torture. You can't even kill yourself. It's like some grisly Ground Hog day.

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wonderer

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Re: Agnostics: Are you afraid of hell?
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2020, 08:41:27 am »
...someone please tell me what the point of torturing people for all eternity accomplishes. I mean the Catholic concept (though unbiblical) of purgatory made more sense because you'd do your stint in stir and ostensibly, if there was some sort of rehab program, the celestial parole board would let you go. Hell makes it like you have no hope, just endless torture. You can't even kill yourself. It's like some grisly Ground Hog day.

The point for the Christian meme-plex, is to keep Christians trapped in Christian beliefs to increase the propagation of the meme-plex.

Point for an omnibenevolent God?  None that makes any sense.
"The world needed that of us, to maintain—by our example, by our very existence—a world that would keep learning and questioning, that would remain free in thought, inquiry, and word." - Alice Dreger

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ChristianInvestigator

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Re: Agnostics: Are you afraid of hell?
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2020, 09:15:19 am »
Good video.  I can relate to having been in a similar state a long time ago. 

The one thing I would particularly disagree with is at around 5:40, when he says that this fear is something he cannot get away from.   

Having a lot more life experience than he does, I can say he most likely will get to a point of not having such fear anymore.  It is simply unrealistic to expect consciously going over his reasoning to be able to immediately and totally uproot views that have been deeply programmed into his subconscious over years while he was a child.  It takes time/repetition to overwrite the effects of the abusive programming.


Fear isn't always a bad thing; fear is what keeps people from doing stupid things like running out into the middle of the street. The only bad fears are fears that are unfounded; and I'm not sure yet that belief in Christianity, Heaven, and He'll is unfounded.

If it is true, I'd be using repition to overwrite perfectly good programming in my system, which sounds like a bad idea... Kind of like self-imposed brainwashing.
"This year, though I'm far from home
In Trench I'm not alone.
These faces facing me,
They know... what I mean."

|-/

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ChristianInvestigator

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Re: Agnostics: Are you afraid of hell?
« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2020, 09:17:13 am »
One of the first things I got rid of in my life was the fear of the devil and of hell. I was still a teenager when I figured out that it (and evil spirits and such) made no sense. It never entered my headspace again. The rest followed in various stages from there.

So you aren't afraid of hell because the concept of hell "makes no sense"? Do you mean to say that it is a contradictory idea? Do you mind elaborating?

I think it's possible that Christianity could be real and evil spirits could be only metaphors, but that's another subject.
"This year, though I'm far from home
In Trench I'm not alone.
These faces facing me,
They know... what I mean."

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ChristianInvestigator

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Re: Agnostics: Are you afraid of hell?
« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2020, 09:23:44 am »
...someone please tell me what the point of torturing people for all eternity accomplishes. I mean the Catholic concept (though unbiblical) of purgatory made more sense because you'd do your stint in stir and ostensibly, if there was some sort of rehab program, the celestial parole board would let you go. Hell makes it like you have no hope, just endless torture. You can't even kill yourself. It's like some grisly Ground Hog day.

What if Hell isn't primarily a place God sends you, but a place where you send yourself because a sinful soul cannot live in the presence of God?
Perhaps all that stuff about fire and flames is only a metaphor, and Hell is a completely normal place except for one thing -- the presence of God is absent, so the people living in Hell will never experience the joy and satisfaction of being with their Creator. Under that understanding, God isn't actively "torturing" anyone.
"This year, though I'm far from home
In Trench I'm not alone.
These faces facing me,
They know... what I mean."

|-/

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noncontingent

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Re: Agnostics: Are you afraid of hell?
« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2020, 09:26:25 am »
...someone please tell me what the point of torturing people for all eternity accomplishes. I mean the Catholic concept (though unbiblical) of purgatory made more sense because you'd do your stint in stir and ostensibly, if there was some sort of rehab program, the celestial parole board would let you go. Hell makes it like you have no hope, just endless torture. You can't even kill yourself. It's like some grisly Ground Hog day.

The point for the Christian meme-plex, is to keep Christians trapped in Christian beliefs to increase the propagation of the meme-plex.

Point for an omnibenevolent God?  None that makes any sense.

I feel the whole hell thing is a satanic accusation against God.

"For the sons of Judah have done evil in my sight, declares the Lord. They have set their detestable things in the house that is called by my name, to defile it. And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind. " - Jeremiah 7:30-31

According to orthodoxy, God is lying to us here, that not only DID this sort of thing come into his mind, but it was designed so.

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noncontingent

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Re: Agnostics: Are you afraid of hell?
« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2020, 09:29:32 am »
...someone please tell me what the point of torturing people for all eternity accomplishes. I mean the Catholic concept (though unbiblical) of purgatory made more sense because you'd do your stint in stir and ostensibly, if there was some sort of rehab program, the celestial parole board would let you go. Hell makes it like you have no hope, just endless torture. You can't even kill yourself. It's like some grisly Ground Hog day.

What if Hell isn't primarily a place God sends you, but a place where you send yourself because a sinful soul cannot live in the presence of God?
Perhaps all that stuff about fire and flames is only a metaphor, and Hell is a completely normal place except for one thing -- the presence of God is absent, so the people living in Hell will never experience the joy and satisfaction of being with their Creator. Under that understanding, God isn't actively "torturing" anyone.

You can see how you have to water down hell because the idea is nauseating.

Again, you have to scripturally prove:

That souls are immortal and can't die (even though the bible clearly says souls die).

Without that, you can't go there.

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ChristianInvestigator

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Re: Agnostics: Are you afraid of hell?
« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2020, 09:32:10 am »

I’m arguing that if Hell really existed, it would be impossible for a good God not to give us clear instructions how to avoid it. And I’m not implying serious disagreement, I’m specifically saying it: “Christian denominations can't agree on what you need to do or believe to avoid hell.”

 Hell is a boogeyman for the fearful.

Alright, so you're specifically saying that Christian denominations can't agree on what actions and beliefs must be done to avoid hell. I don't think the disagreements are all that immense once you look at them closely (excluding clearly non-Christian denominations, like Mormons).

Is this the sort of disagreement you had in mind? "One group believes that all you have to do to be saved is belive in Jesus Christ, another group believes you should live righteously and obey God."
But people in the first category are expected to "do good works" anyway, otherwise they get accused of Hypocrisy and people start to ask them, "Do you really believe in Jesus?" People in the second category obviously believe in Jesus, too, or they wouldn't bother obeying Him.

I'm not saying both approaches are equally valid; perhaps one is more true than the other. All I'm saying is, practically speaking, they both get you to the same place.
"This year, though I'm far from home
In Trench I'm not alone.
These faces facing me,
They know... what I mean."

|-/