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Harvey

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2020, 07:12:44 am »
Whatever shortages there might have been, were known beforehand and not rectified by the Trump administration.

Didn't I say that?

Quote from: Mammal
...instead he preferred to downplay that as well as the safety protocols in favor of talking up the need for the American economy (seemingly more so than its people) to survive and to get back to normal.

Shutting down the economy for any length of time is not a real option. Once the contagion spread it was necessary to "level the curve" which Trump did at enormous cost (maybe he was a few days late, but not by much). After that you have to re-open the economy. Trump did an excellent job working with businesses to provide PPE.

He didn't shutdown the economy as long as everyone would have liked, but no one shut down bars and clubs to slow HIV which was far more deadly. Agreed?

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wonderer

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2020, 08:37:00 am »
At this point we are talking past each other. Nobody is saying the USA and Trump performed miserably because of these factors that you are alluding to now, factors that were pretty much a universal logistical challenge (perhaps not on the same scale). This is not really why the USA ended up with so many more deaths.

I totally disagree. If Obama orders enough PPE, and if Trump is allowed to quarantine the growing hotspots (as Wuhan, South Korea, Hong Kong, and Italy all did), the US would have had a very low number of COVID deaths. Where I blame Trump is he could have pursued PPE buildup after coming into office, and right now his administration has been very careless getting infections in the WH. But, overall he made a lot of great moves too. The latest scandal is a huge embarrassment though.

So, does this amount to sticking to your specialty of pissing on things?

What the New England Journal of Medicine says.

"The world needed that of us, to maintain—by our example, by our very existence—a world that would keep learning and questioning, that would remain free in thought, inquiry, and word." - Alice Dreger

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Mammal

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2020, 09:49:06 am »
Shutting down the economy for any length of time is not a real option. Once the contagion spread it was necessary to "level the curve" which Trump did at enormous cost (maybe he was a few days late, but not by much). After that you have to re-open the economy. Trump did an excellent job working with businesses to provide PPE.
He didn't shutdown the economy as long as everyone would have liked, but no one shut down bars and clubs to slow HIV which was far more deadly. Agreed?
Nobody was saying he should have shut down the economy unnecessarily. You are by implication asserting that he HAD to compromise on certain protocols and actions and HAD to ignore certain advice because he HAD to keep the economy floating. But if you look at the list of failures and flaws, those were mostly just that, failures and flaws. Other countries managed to survive economically WHILE maintaining safety and lockdown protocols and thus keeping their people alive.

And HIV is not the same kind of contagious disease as Covid-19. People with HIV only get infected via unsafe sexual interaction, or by accident via blood contamination, not by merely visiting clubs and bars. Why do you keep on referring to it? Are you trolling?
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Harvey

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2020, 10:42:47 am »
Nobody was saying he should have shut down the economy unnecessarily.

What do you think all of these actions amounted to? The Dems wanted total shutdown after they threatened legal action to quarantine NYC which was an extremely smart idea. The virus wasn't contained. At that point millions of people are going to get the virus unless you shut things down.

Quote from: Mammal
You are by implication asserting that he HAD to compromise on certain protocols and actions and HAD to ignore certain advice because he HAD to keep the economy floating.

Fauci said:

Quote
Fauci denied that he ever heard the president “distort” the threat of the coronavirus and maintained that Trump’s presentations to the public were largely in line with discussions he’d had with medical experts. When asked whether he ever felt Trump was downplaying the severity of the coronavirus, Fauci said no..

Case closed.

Quote from: Mammal
But if you look at the list of failures and flaws, those were mostly just that, failures and flaws. Other countries managed to survive economically WHILE maintaining safety and lockdown protocols and thus keeping their people alive.

They prevented the flow of people, or in the case of Japan and much of Asia they wear masks. Here's an article on March 11 that shows what Japan was doing with masks long before WHO and the CDC recommended to wear masks.

Quote from: Mammal
And HIV is not the same kind of contagious disease as Covid-19. People with HIV only get infected via unsafe sexual interaction, or by accident via blood contamination, not by merely visiting clubs and bars. Why do you keep on referring to it? Are you trolling?

Yes, but HIV spreads by people having sexual contact which could  have easily been prevented by closing bars and clubs. Are you trolling or can you really not see how bars and clubs played a major role in the spread of HIV?

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wonderer

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2020, 11:40:58 am »

Fauci said:

Quote
Fauci denied that he ever heard the president “distort” the threat of the coronavirus and maintained that Trump’s presentations to the public were largely in line with discussions he’d had with medical experts. When asked whether he ever felt Trump was downplaying the severity of the coronavirus, Fauci said no..

Case closed.

Fauci has said all sorts of stuff which anyone with a clue can recognize as tiptoeing around Trump's fragile ego.  Saying, "Case closed.", on the basis of such pandering to Trump's narcissism by Fauci is ridiculous.
"The world needed that of us, to maintain—by our example, by our very existence—a world that would keep learning and questioning, that would remain free in thought, inquiry, and word." - Alice Dreger

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Harvey

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2020, 12:58:52 pm »
Fauci has said all sorts of stuff which anyone with a clue can recognize as tiptoeing around Trump's fragile ego.  Saying, "Case closed.", on the basis of such pandering to Trump's narcissism by Fauci is ridiculous.

Perhaps. But are we supposed to read the news only as fervant liberals? Are you a liberal?

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wonderer

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2020, 05:18:36 pm »
Fauci has said all sorts of stuff which anyone with a clue can recognize as tiptoeing around Trump's fragile ego.  Saying, "Case closed.", on the basis of such pandering to Trump's narcissism by Fauci is ridiculous.

Perhaps. But are we supposed to read the news only as fervant liberals? Are you a liberal?

Of course people can only read the news as who they are, so it would be nonsensical to say people should read the news as fervent anything.   I don't know what this has to do with recognizing that Fauci is walking a tightrope trying to maintain some constructive influence over Trump's decision making.  It seems to me that it should be obvious, that anyone unwilling to be a yes man, to at least some extent, doesn't last long in Trump's orbit.

I'm a liberal, in the sense that Steven Pinker and Jon Haidt are liberals.  Searcherman is likely to see me as on the verge of being alt-right, on the basis of quoting Quillette articles and such.  I see communism as ridiculously naive about human nature, and have as little desire that the US succumb to communist totalitarianism as to theocratic totalitarianism.
"The world needed that of us, to maintain—by our example, by our very existence—a world that would keep learning and questioning, that would remain free in thought, inquiry, and word." - Alice Dreger

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Mammal

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2020, 06:07:01 am »
What do you think all of these actions amounted to? The Dems wanted total shutdown after they threatened legal action to quarantine NYC which was an extremely smart idea. The virus wasn't contained. At that point millions of people are going to get the virus unless you shut things down.
I already dealt with this. Cuomo and De Blasio's handling of the crisis were at first far from perfect and one study has indeed pointed out that many people's lives could have been saved if proper protocols were implemented a week earlier. But the reality was also that the American people might have reacted extremely negatively if drastic military(China)-like measures were enforced right from the outset. I am sure that this was an important consideration in both sides' thinking at the time when these decisions had to be made.

But, as I already pointed out, nothing prevented Trump from tackling the situation head-on in consultation with CDC, the Senate and Congressional committee's, the governors and mayors (even with international experts from other countries & WHO) and in doing so they could have come up with a coordinated effort and plan of action with all parties' buy-in. Instead this is what happened:

March 16: Governors of New York, New Jersey and Connecticut, all Democrats, formulate the same rules for closures, saying they were forced to act because of a lack of coordination from the federal government.
"We need the federal government to do a better job," Cuomo said. "States don't have the capacity or the power to make up for the federal government. We're doing the best we can, but we need the federal government to step up." New York cases hit 950.
(ABC News)

And less than a month later on April 14:
Setting up a potential constitutional showdown between himself and the nation’s governors, President Donald Trump is claiming “total” authority over states in ordering a reopening of the country once the coronavirus pandemic shows signs of receding, even as many governors forge ahead with plans of their own.
“When somebody is the president of the United States, the authority is total. That's the way it's got to be,” Trump claimed Monday during the White House briefing, saying there are “numerous provisions” that grant him the authority to order a state to reopen its economy.
...
The president’s assertions come after he has, for weeks, sought to shift full responsibility onto the shoulders of governors in making decisions on closures for their states, resisting calls to issue a nationwide stay-at-home order at one time by citing the Constitution’s delegation of power to the states -- the very same constitutional principle he is now insisting he can overrule.
(ABC News)

So I am afraid your repeated counter claim does not hold much water.
       
Quote from: Harvey
Fauci said:

Quote
Fauci denied that he ever heard the president “distort” the threat of the coronavirus and maintained that Trump’s presentations to the public were largely in line with discussions he’d had with medical experts. When asked whether he ever felt Trump was downplaying the severity of the coronavirus, Fauci said no..

Case closed.
Well, not quite. In Fauci's first testimony before Congress it became apparent that even though he was keeping the president fully informed, the message from Trump and the White House to the American people conveyed a much different picture than Fauci's. And again during the Senate hearing a month later when he sharply contrasted Trump and warned explicitly against the early reopening.

And this is what he said about how careful he has to be when contradicting Trump, which would explain your quote. 

Quote from: Harvey
Yes, but HIV spreads by people having sexual contact which could  have easily been prevented by closing bars and clubs. Are you trolling or can you really not see how bars and clubs played a major role in the spread of HIV?
This does not add value to the topic, so I am ignoring it.
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Harvey

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2020, 07:42:39 am »
So, you think Fauci loves his job so much that he would never resign if he thought the Trump administration was causing mayhem that you think he caused?

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Mammal

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2020, 08:34:02 am »
It seems that he (Fauci) knows that he is worth more to the people of America than what Trump gives him credit for. He kind of answered that.
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Harvey

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2020, 08:45:45 am »
It seems that he (Fauci) knows that he is worth more to the people of America than what Trump gives him credit for. He kind of answered that.

So you think he would succumb to working in a completely incompetent administration rather than raise awareness of that incompetence to force change? I just don't think the good doctor is like that. Sure, I'm sure he's seen decisions which he strongly disagreed with (e.g., the Rose garden event), but I also think he believes the administration has served the American public very well or he would have resigned back in March.

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Mammal

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2020, 09:32:43 am »
How would it have helped America for him to resign and be replaced by somebody less competent? He was/is respected by many and he probably had a heck of a lot of influence in preventing even further damage to the cause.
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Harvey

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #27 on: October 09, 2020, 09:45:45 am »
How would it have helped America for him to resign and be replaced by somebody less competent? He was/is respected by many and he probably had a heck of a lot of influence in preventing even further damage to the cause.

It's simply immoral to associate your name to a incompetent or even dangerous regime as Trump likes to call certain administrations. I think Dr. Fauci is an upstanding guy who, while realizing every administration is incompetent to a certain degree, realizes that he has a moral responsibility to not be associated with dangerously incompetent or harmful administrations for the sake of the public he serves. I take it that you would have worked for Hitler?

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Mammal

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #28 on: October 09, 2020, 10:45:23 am »
The moral thing to do, I would think, is to try and do one's job as best as possible and not be pushed out by the likes of Trump, to add value where it counts. Admirable thing to do. No need for Hitler comparisons..unless you want to disqualify yourself from the discourse.
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Harvey

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #29 on: October 09, 2020, 11:40:20 am »
The moral thing to do, I would think, is to try and do one's job as best as possible and not be pushed out by the likes of Trump, to add value where it counts. Admirable thing to do. No need for Hitler comparisons..unless you want to disqualify yourself from the discourse.

You just said that adding value is what counts so I suppose you would work for Osama bin Laden, Pol Pot, Mao Zedong, Idi Amin, Saddam Hussein, etc.?