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Mammal

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #30 on: October 09, 2020, 01:12:07 pm »
If you can help the people (not necessarily the rulers) that you serve. Thanks for the chat Harvey, it obviously ran its course.
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Harvey

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #31 on: October 09, 2020, 01:28:25 pm »
If you can help the people (not necessarily the rulers) that you serve. Thanks for the chat Harvey, it obviously ran its course.

Okay. But I would be very upset at Dr. Fauci if he thought as you did. As a doctor of public health I believe he has important responsibilities to not only give truthful health advice but to notify us if the administration he works for is endangering public health. He's entrusted by the people for this, so I can only he believe he knows that and would not take part in an administration endangering public health either through incompetence or mischievousness. Let's agree to disagree that Dr. Fauci would agree to this and would live up to this calling.

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Mammal

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2020, 08:58:57 am »
Okay. But I would be very upset at Dr. Fauci if he thought as you did. As a doctor of public health I believe he has important responsibilities to not only give truthful health advice but to notify us if the administration he works for is endangering public health.
He has done so often, just not in total defiance of Trump as he seems to understand the political nuances that are at play. I already linked two prominent examples and referred to a third early on. Here is another, hot off the press. In his words:
"The data speak for themselves - we had a superspreader event in the White House, and it was in a situation where people were crowded together and were not wearing masks."

I also linked his own explanation for how he sees his role. I have absolutely no idea why you refuse to grasp the situation and persist with this line of inquiry. We already ended our actual discussion on the previous page.
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Harvey

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2020, 10:46:52 am »
He has done so often, just not in total defiance of Trump as he seems to understand the political nuances that are at play. I already linked two prominent examples and referred to a third early on. Here is another, hot off the press. In his words:
"The data speak for themselves - we had a superspreader event in the White House, and it was in a situation where people were crowded together and were not wearing masks."

I also linked his own explanation for how he sees his role. I have absolutely no idea why you refuse to grasp the situation and persist with this line of inquiry. We already ended our actual discussion on the previous page.

This actually argues against your position. The fact that Dr. Fauci does express his opinions on where he disagrees with the administration means that when it was reported:

Quote
Fauci denied that he ever heard the president “distort” the threat of the coronavirus and maintained that Trump’s presentations to the public were largely in line with discussions he’d had with medical experts. When asked whether he ever felt Trump was downplaying the severity of the coronavirus, Fauci said no.

means that we should take him at his word and believe this to be the case. Your argument boils down to the notion that Fauci lies to preserve his job except when he's criticizing the administration which is the only time he's telling the truth. This is completely incredulous.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2020, 10:48:40 am by Harvey »

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Mammal

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2020, 12:34:09 pm »
Oh please.. It's obvious why he was saying what he did..context please..he even explained it himself and heck, I even linked his explanation..quote mining much nowadays..?
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Harvey

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2020, 01:26:03 pm »
Oh please.. It's obvious why he was saying what he did..context please..he even explained it himself and heck, I even linked his explanation..quote mining much nowadays..?

So, do you think this is a lie on Fauci's part?:

Quote
When asked whether he ever felt Trump was downplaying the severity of the coronavirus, Fauci said no.

Is he telling the truth here?

Quote
"The data speak for themselves - we had a superspreader event in the White House, and it was in a situation where people were crowded together and were not wearing masks."

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Mammal

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #36 on: October 11, 2020, 06:35:05 am »
You seem to be employing rather cheap conservative tactics here in order to distort Fauci's views that he expressed to Fox in order to convey the impression that Fauci has cleared Trump of wrongdoing during the pandemic. So first off, you need to at least paint the broader context of the interview. Fauci was responding to questions by Fox, i.e. very much the Trump mouthpiece, relating to Woodward's retelling of his interviews with Trump that put Trump in a rather poor light. So the Fox interview seems really about almost forcing Fauci's hand to choose sides between Trump and Woordward. As such he had to be rather careful in qualifying his response, for example:
Quote
On "The Daily Briefing," host John Roberts asked Fauci if he thought Trump had played down the threat of the virus.

"No, I didn't," Fauci responded. "I didn't get any sense that he was distorting anything. I mean in my discussions with him, they were always straightforward about the concerns that we had. We related that to him. And when he would go out, I'd hear him discussing the same sort of things. He would often say, 'We just got through with a briefing with the group from the task force,' and would talk about it. So it may have happened, but I have not seen that kind of distortion."
...
Roberts also asked Fauci, head of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, whether Trump broke with his advisers in trying to downplay the virus. "You were there through that whole thing," Roberts said. "Was that the playbook or was that the president just going his own direction?"

"I don't think so, John," Fauci responded. "I don't recall anything different than in our discussions that we had with the president that he said things quite similar publicly."
...
(Fauci in reference to Woodward's book): "I didn't really go over any of the text since it just came out," Fauci told Roberts. "But you know, in my discussions and the discussions of other task force members with the president, we're talking about the reality of what was going on.

"And then when we would get up in front of the press conferences, which were very, very common after our discussions with the president, he really didn't say anything different than we discussed when we were with him," he went on. "I may not be tuned in to the right thing that they're talking about. But, I didn't see any discrepancies between what he told us and what we told him, and what he came out publicly and said."

"If you notice, it was [reported that] others have said [I said] that. So, you know, you should ask others. I don't recall that at all," he said. "So I mean ... according to what I saw in the newspapers, it says 'and others have said that.' So you know, I don't really want to get involved in the kind of stuff that is very distracting to the kind of things that I'm trying to do and that we're all trying to do with this outbreak."
Are you able to grasp more of the context here and of Fauci's careful diplomatic responses in reference to what must have been specific interactions and briefings between them - not a general and sweeping statement about everything that Trump has said and done about the pandemic?

And we all know the quote as you gave it, judged purely on its own and at face value, is demonstrably false. We know that because we are privy to a very concise summary of all of Trump's lies about the Coronavirus. Do yourself a favor and search ("Find") the name "Fauci" in that article and read the context in which Fauci is mentioned in connection with Trump's lies. See what I mean..?

So knowing that and having read about Fauci's reports to Congress and to the Senate, as well as his own explanation of why- and how he needs to be careful in how he deals with Trump (that I have all linked at the bottom of the previous page, some of which are apparent from the above Fox interview), we can form a very clear picture here of the dynamics, the political nuances and more importantly, that Fauci was not absolving Trump of everything in one sweeping and unqualified statement to Fox.
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Harvey

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2020, 07:37:51 am »
I don't think he was absolving Trump in his rallies, but what Trump said in the press conferences where Fauci attended is what we ought to compare with what Fauci has said.

Anyway, you're intent on calling Fauci a blatant liar when he says things you disagree with, and a brave honest voice when he says things you agree with. I don't know how anyone could take that position seriously.

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Mammal

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #38 on: October 11, 2020, 09:11:37 am »
Only I did not call him a liar, I was showing you that by referencing one comment without acknowledging its context in order to try and score a desperate point in a lost cause is nothing but quote mining. If you look at the bigger picture, his one isolated comment only fits the pattern if one contextualizes it properly. Trump still failed the test.
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Harvey

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2020, 09:19:53 am »
It would be a horrendous lie far worse than what extreme radical leftists and socialists are accusing Trump of doing.

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wonderer

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2020, 02:54:57 pm »
CNN exclusive: Fauci says he was taken out of context in new Trump campaign ad touting coronavirus response.

Your naivete is showing Harvey.  Educate yourself on the effects that being in the orbit of people with narcissistic personality disorder has on people.  You are expecting superhuman behavior from Fauci.  FWIW, Fauci is doing better than most people in Trump's orbit.
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Harvey

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2020, 07:33:12 pm »
Your naivete is showing Harvey.  Educate yourself on the effects that being in the orbit of people with narcissistic personality disorder has on people.  You are expecting superhuman behavior from Fauci.  FWIW, Fauci is doing better than most people in Trump's orbit.

Fauci is a straight shooter. As far as the quote Fauci is clear why he objected:

Quote
In my nearly five decades of public service, I have never publicly endorsed any political candidate. The comments attributed to me without my permission in the GOP campaign ad were taken out of context from a broad statement I made months ago about the efforts of federal public health officials,"

We have to be willing to accept that not everything is at the extremes. Fauci can be critical without being a Trump foe. Trump can make some rather good choices without having a great record. Obama-Biden could be critical over some obvious lapses by Trump as still have led a disastrous response had they been in power. The coronavirus handling could have been very bad without it being personally Trump's fault. Biden could be 100% coreect and still be the worst candidate by far. Because I see clearly on this issue and not on the extremes Iike you and Mammal I'm more likely to be less naive then either of you.

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wonderer

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2020, 07:55:32 pm »
Because I see clearly on this issue and not on the extremes Iike you and Mammal I'm more likely to be less naive then either of you.

Right, you see the medical issues more clearly than the editors of the New England Journal of Medicine as well, I suppose.



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Harvey

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #43 on: October 11, 2020, 08:15:44 pm »
Right, you see the medical issues more clearly than the editors of the New England Journal of Medicine as well, I suppose.

Seriously?

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wonderer

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #44 on: October 11, 2020, 08:31:59 pm »
Right, you see the medical issues more clearly than the editors of the New England Journal of Medicine as well, I suppose.

Seriously?

"Seriously?", indeed.  Are you trying to mislead people into thinking the name signifies it being a provincial concern?  I have trouble believing that you are actually so ignorant as to think so.  So it seems more likely that you are trying to mislead people who might be ignorant on the matter.

From wikipedia:

The journal usually has the highest impact factor of the journals of internal medicine. According to the Journal Citation Reports, NEJM had a 2017 impact factor of 79.258,[26] ranking it first of 153 journals in the category "General & Internal Medicine".[27] It was the only journal in the category with an impact factor of more than 70. By comparison, the second and third ranked journals in the category (The Lancet and JAMA) had impact factors of 53.254 and 47.661 respectively.[28]
"The world needed that of us, to maintain—by our example, by our very existence—a world that would keep learning and questioning, that would remain free in thought, inquiry, and word." - Alice Dreger