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Harvey

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #45 on: October 11, 2020, 09:49:59 pm »
"Seriously?", indeed.  Are you trying to mislead people into thinking the name signifies it being a provincial concern?  I have trouble believing that you are actually so ignorant as to think so.  So it seems more likely that you are trying to mislead people who might be ignorant on the matter.

From wikipedia:

Let's look at the history.

1) The Wall Street Journal called it the New England Journal of Politics:

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You might say “the New England Journal is joining the ranks of academic publications risking their reputations as non-partisan arbiters of good science in order to rumble in the political tarpits.” That’s a line from our 2006 editorial “New England Journal of Politics” describing how the NEJM had waded into a legal dispute over Merck’s painkiller Vioxx. The NEJM also appeared in these pages in 2007 for working to tank a diabetes drug and help Democrats in Congress to regulate treatment approvals more tightly.

As far as the testing failures this was an issue with the CDC and the FDA:

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The main points of criticism have centered on faulty tests from CDC, the rules about which labs can perform tests, and the criteria under which patients can be tested, which CDC updated last week. . . According to the sources, the problem began with the United States' process for developing a diagnostic test. . . On Feb. 12, CDC announced some of the tests provided labs with inconclusive results. The problem, which involved an ingredient in the test kit, had further slowed the United States' ability to test and confirm COVID-19 diagnoses, requiring most of the testing to be conducted at CDC's headquarters in Atlanta. . . Once CDC became aware of the issue, the agency decided to fix the diagnostic test instead of switching to the diagnostic tests being used by other countries—a move that drew criticism from experts. However, CDC said applying for an FDA authorization to use tests from other countries and then validating and manufacturing the test would have taken the agency longer than fixing the issues with the agency's already validated tests.

What is unknown is who is to blame beyond the technical issues that led to the delays. The article says:

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Regarding the missteps, Jeremy Konyndyk, a senior policy fellow at the Center for Global Development who oversaw the international response to Ebola under former President Barack Obama's administration, said, "They've simply lost time they can't make up. You can't get back six weeks of blindness. To the extent that there's someone to blame here, the blame is on poor, chaotic management from the White House and failure to acknowledge the big picture.

So, it quickly became a political issue of who to place blame on, but a more reasoned view from what I can tell comes from Dr. Roger Klein:

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A Self-Inflicted Crisis
Overregulation has played a dangerous role in America’s coronavirus outbreak. . . The FDA’s regulation of laboratory tests has been a longstanding concern. This includes moves to regulate LDTs, despite the existence of stringent alternative-regulatory and oversight mechanisms. In general, the FDA has exercised “enforcement discretion” with respect to LDTs. With coronavirus testing, the FDA’s abandonment of enforcement discretion may have proved deadly.

In my opinion, people are blaming Trump just to find a scapegoat. One could just as well blame the Obama administration for not having the FDA for not moving forward years earlier with effective testing guidelines.

I just don't see this as the fault of a President. You think Joe is going to improve this? The Swine Flu infected 60 million Americans.

As far as strict government lockdowns, WHO is now advising against lockdowns as much as possible because it is causing very severe problems that some might say is actually worse or as worse as the coronavirus. What they're learning is that lockdowns are taking a heavy toll on the populace. But, Trump said that in April but liberals need to hear it from liberals before they believe anything.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2020, 09:55:17 pm by Harvey »

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Mammal

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #46 on: October 13, 2020, 02:35:34 am »
In my opinion, people are blaming Trump just to find a scapegoat...
...
I just don't see this as the fault of a President.
...
As far as strict government lockdowns, WHO is now advising against lockdowns as much as possible because it is causing very severe problems that some might say is actually worse or as worse as the coronavirus. What they're learning is that lockdowns are taking a heavy toll on the populace. But, Trump said that in April but liberals need to hear it from liberals before they believe anything.
Trump can't even keep his White House, his staff and himself out of harm's way by adhering to safe & prescribed protocols, so he is undoubtedly unfit for the job of protecting the country against the pandemic. His many lies about it to the American public should by now have convinced the electorate and the polls reflect just that.

WHO's so-called new advice against lockdowns is not really all that new; they are just emphasizing that especially poor countries should rather not use strict lockdowns that might cause more harm than good to people who depend on their daily work to get food on the table. There are still prescriptions to guide countries accordingly, first and foremost that the virus is contained and not able to spread (before lockdowns are lifted).
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wonderer

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #47 on: October 13, 2020, 06:15:45 am »

Let's look at the history.

1) [The Rupert Murdock owned] Wall Street Journal called it the New England Journal of Politics:

Seriously?

I can do genetic fallacies too.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2020, 06:17:40 am by wonderer »
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Harvey

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #48 on: October 13, 2020, 07:29:22 am »
Seriously? I can do genetic fallacies too.

Just look at the facts. The NEJM is against the Trump administration because they believe they incompetently mishandled the early phases of testing when it was thousands of people involved and the errors in procedure were largely a result of years of FDA overregulation and bureacracy. It was a perfect storm of technical mistakes by the CDC, the speed by which the virus spread, and the overregulation of the FDA among the major factors that led to this issue. Blaming Trump is like blaming Bush for 9/11. People certainly will, but in reality s**t happens. As far as blaming Trump for not locking down longer, even WHO is advising against it.

Again, I'm not saying the response was perfect. There's a lot of information to disentangle of what Trump knew and decided. But, you can't just look at the bad. Trump's experience in business and running large corporations and willingness to work long hours probably saved many lives. I believe it's wrong to deify him while it's also wrong to demonize him. He has certain skills, but at the same time there are many presidents I would much rather be the president right now (e.g., Ronald Reagan, George Bush Sr., John Kennedy, etc.). It's just that Biden is spent. Just yesterday he was saying he's running for the US senate again, and he couldn't remember Mitt Romney's name. The latter is especially troubling because he didn't quickly change the topic but rather tried to describe Romney (a Mormon, a governor, a senator). That shows more cognitive decline than just a memory blank which is human. He doesn't know what he is saying. And, that's really scarey because as President you have to know what you're saying.

Look, at any time in history Biden wouldn't stand much of a chance. But, he's winning because people absolutely detest Trump. And, I get that. I detest him too, but I also see a president who I think has accomplished a lot and has made some very, very tough choices that most president's outside of Reagan perhaps would have not done but might have saved our butts. For example, pulling out of the intermediate range weapons arms treaty was difficult, but China wasn't part of that agreement and they are building up a huge arsenal that could have our navy paralyzed in the Pacific. Russia, whom Dems like to say Trump is too chumy, was furious we pulled out when they too weren't honoring the deal. How about the Space Force? It sounds kind of hooky, but Trump probably made the most important decision in his presidency by implementing it. We were about to lose terribly in space if we didn't respond to what our adversaries are doing in space. I tend to think Trump did something that few presidents would do. The arctic was being literally taken over by Russia and now China, and with sea lanes opening up we needed to establish US presence to protect ourselves from future incursions that is very close to the country. Trump repeatedly has shown the kind of assertiveness and aggressiveness at the right time in history. So, I changed some of my mind of him.

But, it's not easy. He's a complete dope.

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Harvey

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #49 on: October 13, 2020, 07:43:46 am »
...so he is undoubtedly unfit for the job of protecting the country against the pandemic.

If X then Y. I don't buy Y. If you said, "therefore Trump is very careless wrt the pandemic" then I would agree. However, if Biden were competent (and I don't think he's even halfway competent) then it would be a good reason to vote for Biden. But we live in an extremely important time where the chances of a major conflict breaking out are as high as 1985 and socialists are trying to get their hands on American democracy (they haven't been this close since 1933). Biden is in no condition to handle either of these issues.

Quote from: Mammal
His many lies about it to the American public should by now have convinced the electorate and the polls reflect just that.

"Trump talk" is certainly lying, but it's not "Nixon lies" which I see as much more serious. I have no doubt Trump is lying in certain areas that are perhaps impeachable, but I think the pandemic related is mostly Trump talk.

Quote from: Mammal
WHO's so-called new advice against lockdowns is not really all that new; they are just emphasizing that especially poor countries should rather not use strict lockdowns that might cause more harm than good to people who depend on their daily work to get food on the table. There are still prescriptions to guide countries accordingly, first and foremost that the virus is contained and not able to spread (before lockdowns are lifted).

Lockdowns in rich countries has a very severe impact on poor countries. And, it has severe impacts on making rich countries poor.

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Mammal

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #50 on: October 13, 2020, 09:46:41 am »
If X then Y. I don't buy Y. If you said, "therefore Trump is very careless wrt the pandemic" then I would agree. However, if Biden were competent (and I don't think he's even halfway competent) then it would be a good reason to vote for Biden. But we live in an extremely important time where the chances of a major conflict breaking out are as high as 1985 and socialists are trying to get their hands on American democracy (they haven't been this close since 1933). Biden is in no condition to handle either of these issues.
Biden, with the kind of support personnel he has gathered around him, should be far bettter and safer and more trustworthy than the Trump fiasco. And the polls indicate a similar perception among the majority of Americans. Support for Trump has taken a dip since the start of the pandemic and has remained pretty low.
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Harvey

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #51 on: October 13, 2020, 11:59:27 am »
Biden, with the kind of support personnel he has gathered around him, should be far bettter and safer and more trustworthy than the Trump fiasco. And the polls indicate a similar perception among the majority of Americans. Support for Trump has taken a dip since the start of the pandemic and has remained pretty low.

Oh I don't give much hope for Trump. I talked to a couple of friends who voted for Trump last time (who actually tried to get me to vote for Trump -- I didn't, I voted for Hillary) and they absolutely will not in a million years vote a second time for Trump. The media is protecting Biden to a large extent but I don't think people realize that Biden is gone. He's checked out and didn't tell the front desk. He left the table without paying the bill. The wheel is spinning but the hampster has died. The chief of staff is going to be the next president. But unless that chief of staff is Bill Clinton or Barak Obama it is a big concern for the country.

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Mammal

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #52 on: October 13, 2020, 12:42:36 pm »
Collectively the Biden team is far better equipped than an autocratic and a loose cannon Trump.
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Harvey

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #53 on: October 13, 2020, 03:49:50 pm »
Collectively the Biden team is far better equipped than an autocratic and a loose cannon Trump.

Are you familiar how executive orders from the president are done in the US? It is against the 25th amendment for a president to be unable to carry out the job. That means that Biden will need to be removed from office once it is clear he is not giving the orders any longer. Why would Biden or any government official put the country through that process when it is clear he cannot perform in the office in which he is seeking.

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Mammal

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #54 on: October 14, 2020, 01:16:03 am »
Who was/is saying that he is incapable of executive orders? I was simply saying that Biden has gathered what appears to be a competent team and that there would likely be a consultative process that steers decision making at the highest level. That was in reaction to your earlier assertion that Biden is not capable to deal with the challenges.
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Harvey

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #55 on: October 14, 2020, 07:50:53 am »
Who was/is saying that he is incapable of executive orders? I was simply saying that Biden has gathered what appears to be a competent team and that there would likely be a consultative process that steers decision making at the highest level. That was in reaction to your earlier assertion that Biden is not capable to deal with the challenges.

But, if his cognitive decline is such that he describes Mitt Romney to people then he can't communicate with world leaders. He can't tell his staff what ideas he wishes to communicate. He probably won't remember what he's communicated. On top of that, if the Dems take the House and Senate they may be unwilling to exercise the 25th amendment if they find it is politically damaging to their party or they think there are liberal advantages to have Biden agreeing to everything they want. Not to mention Trump willl be tweeting everyday how Biden is not able to have a press conference (will he be able to have one where he doesn't have to just bash Trump?). It's a real nightmare brewing.

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Mammal

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #56 on: October 14, 2020, 01:03:05 pm »
Meh..

USA already finds itself in a situation where they elected a narcissistic degenerate who might have cost them double (or more) lives to Covid. A new precedent has been set for the president. Adapt.
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wonderer

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #57 on: October 14, 2020, 01:26:36 pm »
Not to mention Trump willl be tweeting everyday how Biden is not able to have a press conference (will he be able to have one where he doesn't have to just bash Trump?). It's a real nightmare brewing.

So, because we can expect Trump to remain a narcissistic scumbag, we should keep him in office?

Even minimum security prison would restrict Trump's access to Twitter, I would think.  So put Trump where he belongs, and this problem is taken care of.
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Harvey

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #58 on: October 14, 2020, 02:54:03 pm »
Meh..

USA already finds itself in a situation where they elected a narcissistic degenerate who might have cost them double (or more) lives to Covid. A new precedent has been set for the president. Adapt.

60 million people Americans got Swine Flu under Obama-Biden. Using your logic they are responsible. You should stick to beliefs peddled in Wired!.

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Harvey

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Re: Hypotheical question
« Reply #59 on: October 14, 2020, 02:57:45 pm »
So, because we can expect Trump to remain a narcissistic scumbag, we should keep him in office?

I'm just pointing out a potential nightmarish scenario where we have a president who's really not qualified for the presidency in the most basic of all sense. Trump's peanut gallery will only make the situation more divisive.

Quote from: Wonderer
Even minimum security prison would restrict Trump's access to Twitter, I would think.  So put Trump where he belongs, and this problem is taken care of.

You really want to invite civil unrest. I like my 401 thank you very much.