barryjones

  • **
  • 382 Posts
    • View Profile
Do these forums violate 2nd Timothy 2:14?
« on: October 12, 2020, 04:59:41 pm »
 14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers. (2 Tim. 2:14 NAU)

What is "unreasonable" about characterizing the debates here as the "wrangling" Paul forbade?  Does Paul make so clear what he means by 'wrangle" that you can demonstrate that the kind of debates we have here are surely something different?

Might you be committing the sin of word-wrangling if you even ATTEMPT to defend these forums from this accusation?

If you are so sure these forums don't violate that verse, then provide some fictional dialogue to illustrate exactly what kind of back-and-forth that Paul DID mean when he said "wrangling words", and support your argument by appeal to the grammar and immediate context of that verse.  But remember:  don't wrangle words with anybody!

1

kravarnik

  • ****
  • 5976 Posts
  • Thy rod and Thy staff, they comfort me!
    • View Profile
Re: Do these forums violate 2nd Timothy 2:14?
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2020, 06:01:37 pm »
14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers. (2 Tim. 2:14 NAU)

What is "unreasonable" about characterizing the debates here as the "wrangling" Paul forbade?  Does Paul make so clear what he means by 'wrangle" that you can demonstrate that the kind of debates we have here are surely something different?

Might you be committing the sin of word-wrangling if you even ATTEMPT to defend these forums from this accusation?

If you are so sure these forums don't violate that verse, then provide some fictional dialogue to illustrate exactly what kind of back-and-forth that Paul DID mean when he said "wrangling words", and support your argument by appeal to the grammar and immediate context of that verse.  But remember:  don't wrangle words with anybody!

This doesn't violate the rules. For example, I don't argue with Orthodox people about words, especially not during preaching and teaching of the priest(lest, the ruin of the hearers happens).

However, we are here arguing with non-believers, and people of other denominations. Protestants don't share the same mind with the Orthodox, or the Catholic. The Catholics do share a lot in common with us, Orthodox, but still there are quite a lot of differences. Saint Paul said that as an instruction to the congregation during liturgy. People of the same faith and mind, supposedly.

A fictional dialogue:

The priest just finished the service and begins his preaching to his flock. He begins by "It is said in the Scriptures "In the beginning was the Word", at which point some barry guy chimes in with "what's the word, mate?"

- It is Chinese hieroglyphs! - someone from the back yelled
- No, it is immaterial stuff, dummies! - a wise for his age kid said
- It is IT coding, I suggest! - barry replied to the above

This went on for half an hour and everyone left dumber and without learning anything.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 06:03:26 pm by kravarnik »
"And even if you crush my body and drain it 'til the last drop - you can never touch my spirit, you can never touch my soul. No matter how bleak or how hopeless, no matter how hard or how far - you can never break my conation. Tear the will apart from desire." Insomnium - Weather the storm

2

barryjones

  • **
  • 382 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Do these forums violate 2nd Timothy 2:14?
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2020, 07:52:56 pm »
14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers. (2 Tim. 2:14 NAU)

What is "unreasonable" about characterizing the debates here as the "wrangling" Paul forbade?  Does Paul make so clear what he means by 'wrangle" that you can demonstrate that the kind of debates we have here are surely something different?

Might you be committing the sin of word-wrangling if you even ATTEMPT to defend these forums from this accusation?

If you are so sure these forums don't violate that verse, then provide some fictional dialogue to illustrate exactly what kind of back-and-forth that Paul DID mean when he said "wrangling words", and support your argument by appeal to the grammar and immediate context of that verse.  But remember:  don't wrangle words with anybody!

This doesn't violate the rules. For example, I don't argue with Orthodox people about words, especially not during preaching and teaching of the priest(lest, the ruin of the hearers happens).


So do you condemn Christians who facilitate debates between equally Orthodox Christians?

Quote
However, we are here arguing with non-believers, and people of other denominations.

Then you must think Paul only thought wrangling of words between people of the same denomination leads to the ruin of the hearers, but doesn't if the debate is between Christians of different denominations.  Try justifying THAT razor sharp nuance from the unqualified context of 2nd Timothy 2:14.

[/quote]Protestants don't share the same mind with the Orthodox, or the Catholic. [/quote]

Paul accused the Corinthians of division, but he still admonished them to be of one mind, 1st Cor. 1:10.

Where does the bible list the minimal doctrines two Christians must equally believe before they can be considered of the same "mind"?

Quote
The Catholics do share a lot in common with us, Orthodox, but still there are quite a lot of differences. Saint Paul said that as an instruction to the congregation during liturgy. People of the same faith and mind, supposedly.

Once again, your ridiculous parsing of 2nd Timothy 2:14 necessarily causes you to exempt debate places like this from Paul's prohibition on word wrangling...which leads to the absurd conclusion that Paul thought wrangling words could lead to positive benefits as long as it is only Christians who debate unbelievers or 'cultists'.  That's rather fanciful.  IF Paul wanted to qualify his words the way your argument assumes he meant to, he could have.  He didn't.  Understanding Paul to prohibit ALL "word wranging' by Christians, regardless of context, is going to be reasonable, whether you can trifle otherwise or not.

A fictional dialogue:

The priest just finished the service and begins his preaching to his flock. He begins by "It is said in the Scriptures "In the beginning was the Word", at which point some barry guy chimes in with "what's the word, mate?"

- It is Chinese hieroglyphs! - someone from the back yelled
- No, it is immaterial stuff, dummies! - a wise for his age kid said
- It is IT coding, I suggest! - barry replied to the above

This went on for half an hour and everyone left dumber and without learning anything.
[/quote]

Then you are violating the context of 2nd Timothy 2:14.  Before Paul mentioned the world wrangling prohibition, he said "remind them of these things"; and "these things" were statements of essential doctrine, vv. 11-13.   So in context, Paul did not want his followers to engage in word-wrangling concerning essential doctrine.  Any notion of who the prohibited debate opponents are, is missing, thus Paul's prohibition would be enforced whether the debate partner was from the same denomination, an unbeliever, a skeptic or a "cultist".

You probably wouldn't have violated the context had you been filled with the Holy Spirit.  And if you weren't filled with the Holy Spirit, then rejecting your counsel would be no more dangerous than rejecting the counsel of a Mormon.

3

noncontingent

  • **
  • 631 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Do these forums violate 2nd Timothy 2:14?
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2020, 07:01:36 am »
Of course. This place is where Paul found idlers who were wont to debate any topic.

No one's getting anything important done here.

This is just philosophic cud-chewing.

4

Lucian

  • ***
  • 2656 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Do these forums violate 2nd Timothy 2:14?
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2020, 12:49:12 pm »
14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers. (2 Tim. 2:14 NAU)

What is "unreasonable" about characterizing the debates here as the "wrangling" Paul forbade?

I doubt Paul was forbidding theological and philosophical discussion in general. But perhaps some debates that occur here would attract his censure for this reason.

5

noncontingent

  • **
  • 631 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Do these forums violate 2nd Timothy 2:14?
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2020, 01:32:54 pm »
14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers. (2 Tim. 2:14 NAU)

What is "unreasonable" about characterizing the debates here as the "wrangling" Paul forbade?

I doubt Paul was forbidding theological and philosophical discussion in general. But perhaps some debates that occur here would attract his censure for this reason.

Of course even Paul said in his letters "...in my opinion". So if someone wants to spend his time, then he should. Time will tell whether it was worth it.

6

barryjones

  • **
  • 382 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Do these forums violate 2nd Timothy 2:14?
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2020, 05:11:19 pm »
14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers. (2 Tim. 2:14 NAU)

What is "unreasonable" about characterizing the debates here as the "wrangling" Paul forbade?

I doubt Paul was forbidding theological and philosophical discussion in general. But perhaps some debates that occur here would attract his censure for this reason.

But if the prohibition doesn't list any exceptions, how can it be unreasonable to read the prohibition as absolute?  Are we obligated to adopt only the interpretation that causes Paul to "make sense"?  No.

7

Lucian

  • ***
  • 2656 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Do these forums violate 2nd Timothy 2:14?
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2020, 05:01:08 pm »
14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers. (2 Tim. 2:14 NAU)

What is "unreasonable" about characterizing the debates here as the "wrangling" Paul forbade?

I doubt Paul was forbidding theological and philosophical discussion in general. But perhaps some debates that occur here would attract his censure for this reason.

But if the prohibition doesn't list any exceptions, how can it be unreasonable to read the prohibition as absolute?  Are we obligated to adopt only the interpretation that causes Paul to "make sense"?  No.

It's important to not read these texts simplistically and/or uncharitably. Otherwise, we're going to have them say things they don't really say.

8

barryjones

  • **
  • 382 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Do these forums violate 2nd Timothy 2:14?
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2020, 07:48:09 pm »
14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers. (2 Tim. 2:14 NAU)

What is "unreasonable" about characterizing the debates here as the "wrangling" Paul forbade?

I doubt Paul was forbidding theological and philosophical discussion in general. But perhaps some debates that occur here would attract his censure for this reason.

But if the prohibition doesn't list any exceptions, how can it be unreasonable to read the prohibition as absolute?  Are we obligated to adopt only the interpretation that causes Paul to "make sense"?  No.

It's important to not read these texts simplistically and/or uncharitably. Otherwise, we're going to have them say things they don't really say.

All that matters is whether my interpretation can withstand scholarly scrutiny.  It can.  That verse condemns the vast majority of Christian scholars and apologists, since it is clear that what they do mostly consists of fighting with other people about the meaning of words and phrases.  So I'm going to be reasonable to say Paul condemns most modern Christian apologists, even if an apologist reads into the passage limitations that aren't there.

9

Lucian

  • ***
  • 2656 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Do these forums violate 2nd Timothy 2:14?
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2020, 04:53:05 am »
That doesn't seem reasonable to me, and I'm the only contributor here who could even approximate scholarly scrutiny in this field.

10

lancia

  • ****
  • 5920 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Do these forums violate 2nd Timothy 2:14?
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2020, 10:52:57 am »
14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers. (2 Tim. 2:14 NAU)

What is "unreasonable" about characterizing the debates here as the "wrangling" Paul forbade?

I doubt Paul was forbidding theological and philosophical discussion in general. But perhaps some debates that occur here would attract his censure for this reason.

But if the prohibition doesn't list any exceptions, how can it be unreasonable to read the prohibition as absolute?  Are we obligated to adopt only the interpretation that causes Paul to "make sense"?  No.

It's important to not read these texts simplistically and/or uncharitably. Otherwise, we're going to have them say things they don't really say.

I agree. Looking at the various Bible translations of 2 Timothy 2:14, one cannot logically conclude that the verse unambiguously claims all wrangling about words is forbidden. In some translations, what seems to be forbidden is any wrangling that is not conducive to understanding.

This view is supported by many Bible versions that qualify the wrangling spoken against, e.g., the NKJV.

"Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers."

In the version of the verse used in the OP, i.e.,

"Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers,"

the writing suggests, through the use of the non-restrictive relative pronoun which, that all wrangling about words is forbidden.

But since other versions do not use any such language that implies all wrangling about words is forbidden, it does not necessarily follow that this verse unambiguously claims ALL wrangling about words is forbidden.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2020, 02:30:16 pm by lancia »