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AgapeFire

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White Supremacy Article Scares Me
« on: October 15, 2020, 09:04:21 pm »
https://news.yahoo.com/secret-audio-recordings-detail-white-133538186.html
New Jersey's Office of Homeland Security and Preparedness said in a statement that The Base will in 2020 "likely attempt to recruit new members in the region, rely on members with military expertise and training, and use intimidation tactics to terrorize its victims and spread its white supremacist ideology."

Geraldine Moriba, a producer of law center's podcast, notes in the series that The Base's members and potential recruits who feature in the recordings "claim to live in 26 different states and participate in small, two-or-three person cells in every quadrant of America. An additional eight countries were represented on these calls."


This was a disturbing read.  White supremacy is a horrific evil and sin I simply do not comprehend (as in, psychologically, what's going on in such individual's minds).  It's also deeply frustrating and disappointing that after so many hundreds of years of this that it cannot be eradicated to a larger degree in America.  It is a resilient ideology.

a.)  Should Christians view racial sins in any particularly unique light that would sort of give us an understanding into its nature? 
b.)  How can the church be God's light on this issue? 

-AF

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« Last Edit: October 15, 2020, 09:07:52 pm by AgapeFire »

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noncontingent

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Re: White Supremacy Article Scares Me
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2020, 06:58:29 am »
You probably believe in the boogieman of systemic racism too.

Systemic racism – n. conspiracy without any conspirators

How so?

Well systemic racism isn’t that old-fashioned individual racism that most people think of when they use the term. That’s not it at all.

What makes it systemic is that no one in the system actually has to be a racist in order for the system to produce racist outcomes.

Now if you linger on that and actually think about it deeply it's a very puzzling idea because it suggests something really odd. It suggests that the criminal justice system…. even if there were not a single racist policeman, judge, prosecutor or law, that it could yield a racist outcome.

This a conspiracy theory without the conspirators.

No one is responsible because the system is responsible. Of course if no one is responsible but the system, then what do you do?

You tear it down.

You get woke and you realize it all has to go.

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noncontingent

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Re: White Supremacy Article Scares Me
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2020, 06:59:23 am »
Imagine that you and I are walking down a sidewalk in the evening and unbeknownst to us is a beer bottle sticking up on the edge of the sidewalk. I step on the beer bottle, jostle you off the sidewalk into the street and at that same moment a car roars by and because you are now in the road, you get hit and are seriously injured.

Who is to blame?

Is it the person who threw the bottle onto the sidewalk?

Is it the person who was driving close to the sidewalk?

Is it because we chose to walk in the evening?

Is it because we are older and lack the same balance as more youthful people?

Is it because we have a culture that drinks alcohol and an economy which promotes the consumption of alcohol?

Is it because we have a culture and an economy which has created the combustion engine and cars are one manifestation of this?

We can get to thinking perhaps we’re all complicit in this accident? We’re all part of a system which has created these things and we use them and benefit from them?

This is the kind of screwed up thinking we’re witnessing on the left today.

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AgapeFire

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Re: White Supremacy Article Scares Me
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2020, 10:06:38 pm »
You probably believe in the boogieman of systemic racism too.
EXCUSE YOU for your rudeness!

You sound like you have a pre-existing axe to grind and imported your "issues" into a thread whose focus is not what you're talking about here (at least that I can tell). 

If you go around engaging in conversations like this, don't expect anyone of good character and will to interact with you. 

-AF

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kravarnik

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Re: White Supremacy Article Scares Me
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2020, 06:25:37 pm »
What amazes me about the people, who cry white supremacy, is the fact that they turn a blind eye on all the anti-white remarks and sentiments expressed at leftist rallies/protests/organizations.

I mean, if you're acting out of some moral principle that no man should be shamed, harmed, oppressed, repressed, discriminated against and so on, on the basis of race, why would you turn a blind eye on the clear anti-white fever that's going on in many leftist organizations?


If you act out of a moral principle, then apply that consistently. If you don't apply it consistently, then I cannot help it, but to conclude the obvious: you're just a racist, who cry afoul racism when he has something to gain and turns a blind eye to racism when he has something to protect.
"And even if you crush my body and drain it 'til the last drop - you can never touch my spirit, you can never touch my soul. No matter how bleak or how hopeless, no matter how hard or how far - you can never break my conation. Tear the will apart from desire." Insomnium - Weather the storm

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AgapeFire

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Re: White Supremacy Article Scares Me
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2020, 07:03:55 pm »
What amazes me about the people, who cry white supremacy, is the fact that they turn a blind eye on all the anti-white remarks and sentiments expressed at leftist rallies/protests/organizations.

I mean, if you're acting out of some moral principle that no man should be shamed, harmed, oppressed, repressed, discriminated against and so on, on the basis of race, why would you turn a blind eye on the clear anti-white fever that's going on in many leftist organizations?


If you act out of a moral principle, then apply that consistently. If you don't apply it consistently, then I cannot help it, but to conclude the obvious: you're just a racist, who cry afoul racism when he has something to gain and turns a blind eye to racism when he has something to protect.
Hmmm.  Was this a post in reference to me, kravarnik? 

Or, was it more of a general criticism of some hypocrisy in regards to anti-racism you've seen in others? 

I just found it a little odd is all, as my thread was focused specifically on white supremacist groups.  I made no mention of other types of racism (for example, anti-white racism), because that's not something I had read anything about recently that had disturbed me.  Of course, racism is something that is a sin that affects all humans of every racial/ethnic background (i.e., there are racists of every background).  I did not think it was necessary to point that out, as I take it as a given fact. 

-AF

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kravarnik

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Re: White Supremacy Article Scares Me
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2020, 07:28:28 pm »
Hmmm.  Was this a post in reference to me, kravarnik? 

Or, was it more of a general criticism of some hypocrisy in regards to anti-racism you've seen in others? 

I just found it a little odd is all, as my thread was focused specifically on white supremacist groups.  I made no mention of other types of racism (for example, anti-white racism), because that's not something I had read anything about recently that had disturbed me.  Of course, racism is something that is a sin that affects all humans of every racial/ethnic background (i.e., there are racists of every background).  I did not think it was necessary to point that out, as I take it as a given fact. 

-AF

Really? Then that makes me wonder what kind of news and sources you're reading. 

You really aren't bothered by the claims for reparations done by leftist activists(white to black)? You really aren't bothered by the fact that quotas for particular races are in place in universities, which means white people are in some cases not qualified, or excluded, from entering a particular university, because there's a quota for other races?

You aren't bothered by the general sentiment among many leftists, where they speak in general language that "white people/folks/men" are racist? Notice, they don't specify who, or when, or anything of this sort, but speak in general against the entire white population of the US. If you're white, that includes YOU as well, while you yourself may not be racist.


Of course, by what I've seen and read, most of these (leftist)people, when pressed, they resort to "systemic racism", as opposed to "white people racism", because they cannot name names, give instances and occasions for the racism they claim to be allegedly going on, so they resort to the myth of systemic racism.

What about the claims by some leftists that white policemen are racist toward black people, which include many moral white policemen, only because they are "white"(so, they are counted "racist" only because they are white, not on the basis of the facts of their life)?



Surely, you must have heard some of this and be equally repulsed by many leftist organizations, activists and politicians. Unless you honestly don't know about any of this, which means you must have selected your sources of news very, very arbitrarily. Heavily leaning toward sources that only report on "white-supremacy".
"And even if you crush my body and drain it 'til the last drop - you can never touch my spirit, you can never touch my soul. No matter how bleak or how hopeless, no matter how hard or how far - you can never break my conation. Tear the will apart from desire." Insomnium - Weather the storm

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AgapeFire

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Re: White Supremacy Article Scares Me
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2020, 07:33:29 pm »
Really? Then that makes me wonder what kind of news and sources you're reading. 

You really aren't bothered by the claims for reparations done by leftist activists(white to black)? You really aren't bothered by the fact that quotas for particular races are in place in universities, which means white people are in some cases not qualified, or excluded, from entering a particular university, because there's a quota for other races?
Ahhh, so when I say recently, I mean literally this week (which is when the article was written)!!

In terms of the issues with racial politics you've mentioned, sure, I have disagreements with some of them.  However, I was focused specifically on the article in the OP and not on those issues at the time of the writing of the post. 

-AF

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« Last Edit: October 18, 2020, 07:38:54 pm by AgapeFire »

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AgapeFire

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Re: White Supremacy Article Scares Me
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2020, 07:36:55 pm »
In other words:  Don't assume I'm a racist because I did not mention innumerable other instances of racism that exist, prior to discussing a specific instance of disturbing racism, brother!  :)

-AF

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kravarnik

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Re: White Supremacy Article Scares Me
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2020, 07:47:43 pm »
Ahhh, so when I say recently, I mean literally this week (which is when the article was written)!!

In terms of the issues with racial politics you've mentioned, sure, I have disagreements with some of them.  However, I was focused specifically on the article in the OP and not on those issues at the time of the writing of the post. 

-AF

But, that's the funny moment in the entire situation and context. You surely have read at some point the things I mentioned. Did you make a thread about them? Why is it that when you saw the white supremacy news you felt the urge to make a thread about it?

I am not saying you should mention all racism, and can never focus on particular instances of it. I am just observing the fact that some people, especially those who complain about and believe in white supremacy's existence, seem to focus on just that. And they, for some unknown reason to me, never make a thread condemning BLM, for example.

Or how you'd readily make a comment, or a thread, condemning Trump and some of his comments/facts of his life/policy of his government, but never about some other politicians(as if, other politicians don't have short-comings, downfalls, vices and overall bad things revealed about them).


It is this highly selective approach that leaves an impression in me that one is not acting out of a moral principle(you hate and condemn all politicians that are corrupt and we have facts about them that paint them as such, because you hate sin), but out of personal bias.
"And even if you crush my body and drain it 'til the last drop - you can never touch my spirit, you can never touch my soul. No matter how bleak or how hopeless, no matter how hard or how far - you can never break my conation. Tear the will apart from desire." Insomnium - Weather the storm

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kravarnik

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Re: White Supremacy Article Scares Me
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2020, 07:51:54 pm »
In other words:  Don't assume I'm a racist because I did not mention innumerable other instances of racism that exist, prior to discussing a specific instance of disturbing racism, brother!  :)

-AF

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I never assumed you a racist, mate. I only alluded to hypocrisy. You may not be hypocritical, indeed, but you need to realize that from an outside point of view - for I am not an American, nor do I favor Trump, - people that usually complain and make a fuss about Republicans and their racism, and about white-supremacy, often stay silent and never open their mouth against other politicians on the other spectrum.


And all I am saying is: if one is really speaking from a moral place, for one truly believes particular things are wrong, they'd be equally repulsed and would equally feel the urge to do the same about all things under that category of wrong.


Because, really, if I say that I care about the environment and then see a guy, who throws rubbish on the street and make a fuss about it, but then I see my mother doing so and I say nothing, then how is it that I care about the environment?
"And even if you crush my body and drain it 'til the last drop - you can never touch my spirit, you can never touch my soul. No matter how bleak or how hopeless, no matter how hard or how far - you can never break my conation. Tear the will apart from desire." Insomnium - Weather the storm

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AgapeFire

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Re: White Supremacy Article Scares Me
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2020, 01:41:13 am »
But, that's the funny moment in the entire situation and context. You surely have read at some point the things I mentioned. Did you make a thread about them? Why is it that when you saw the white supremacy news you felt the urge to make a thread about it?

I am not saying you should mention all racism, and can never focus on particular instances of it. I am just observing the fact that some people, especially those who complain about and believe in white supremacy's existence, seem to focus on just that. And they, for some unknown reason to me, never make a thread condemning BLM, for example.

Or how you'd readily make a comment, or a thread, condemning Trump and some of his comments/facts of his life/policy of his government, but never about some other politicians(as if, other politicians don't have short-comings, downfalls, vices and overall bad things revealed about them).

It is this highly selective approach that leaves an impression in me that one is not acting out of a moral principle(you hate and condemn all politicians that are corrupt and we have facts about them that paint them as such, because you hate sin), but out of personal bias.
I think you're reading waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much into a thread here, kravarnik.  I am mainly continuing to respond to you, because I recall having sincere, interesting, and sophisticated intellectual interaction with you in the past (if I remember correctly, we discussed economic ideologies and Christianity).  But, had this not been the case, I would tell you you're being quite abrasive and much too presumptuous here and perhaps discontinue chat with you.  :)

To defend myself:
a.)  If this is the first time I've ever posted anything on racism, how can you infer anything about me?
b.)  I have not posted much on RF in recent years in general (I was most active as wlcgeek and keegclw probably four or five years ago), so a lack of posts on any topic ought not be taken to mean much of anything, as I just don't post much at all.  :)
c.)  If you're suggesting that I've never criticized any politician other than Donald Trump, you'd simply have to look at the recent posts I've made.  I said I was not a fan of Biden/Harris.  But, more importantly, even if you're somehow trying to make the criticism I think you're trying to make, how can you infer these things when I've just returned to post from an absence (and have not posted much in recent years anyways)?
d.)  Why can't someone have a particular sensitivity to a particular issue and be passionate about it over other issues without that being a sign of bias (which is what I'm sensing you're inferring)?  I think, as humans, God allows us to go through things that can create in us unique sensitivities to certain issues (or perhaps have them be a part of our make-up - as in an innate intellectual curiosity or maybe emotional connection to something) that can be opportunities for us to explore those topics and possibly take action to be God's light on those issues.  This is often a good thing!  A sensitivity to and interest in one social cause, for example, does not in any way mean that a person is uncaring about other issues/concerns.

Think about it.  If care about hunger and poverty (which I do) and post a thread about wanting to see more done about it within the church, does that mean I do not care about issues of environmental pollution, political corruption, inner-city crime, pornography's harm to society, and so on and so forth?  Of course not!  Those may not be my areas of interest or expertise and that is totally fine!  I would still support those causes, according to what I knew about them and felt was right from a Christian perspective, but they just would not be areas that I spent the bulk of my time on.  God has thankfully designed us and/or put each of us into unique situations to have the interests we do so that there are a multiplicity of social causes individual Christians can all take up.

In short, let's get back to the OP in this thread and not make these highly speculative assumptions!!! 

-AF

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« Last Edit: October 19, 2020, 01:47:13 am by AgapeFire »

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AgapeFire

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Re: White Supremacy Article Scares Me
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2020, 02:11:50 am »
I never assumed you a racist, mate. I only alluded to hypocrisy. You may not be hypocritical, indeed, but you need to realize that from an outside point of view - for I am not an American, nor do I favor Trump, - people that usually complain and make a fuss about Republicans and their racism, and about white-supremacy, often stay silent and never open their mouth against other politicians on the other spectrum.


And all I am saying is: if one is really speaking from a moral place, for one truly believes particular things are wrong, they'd be equally repulsed and would equally feel the urge to do the same about all things under that category of wrong.
Please see my post above. 

But, very importantly, please try NOT to ever make such leaps of logic!  When you bring up "hypocrisy," do you know how offensive that sounds to someone?  You're attacking a person's character and doing so based off of wild assumptions!

Both you and noncontingent sound like you have pre-existing axes to grind and are projecting those issues onto my thread with a heavy amount of unreasonable suspicion and frankly a great deal of rudeness!

-AF

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noncontingent

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Re: White Supremacy Article Scares Me
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2020, 02:14:03 pm »
You probably believe in the boogieman of systemic racism too.
EXCUSE YOU for your rudeness!

You sound like you have a pre-existing axe to grind and imported your "issues" into a thread whose focus is not what you're talking about here (at least that I can tell). 

If you go around engaging in conversations like this, don't expect anyone of good character and will to interact with you. 

-AF

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formerly:  wlcgeek; keegclw; and GodLovesU - Hopefully, fourth time's a charm when it comes to remembering login info.!

This is important, so pay attention "You TAKE offense, no one gives offense".

Also "The taking of offense is what rests in the bosom of the stupid ones" - Ecclesiastes 7:9

I'm sure you'll find this helpful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0MrHV3T-vI
« Last Edit: October 19, 2020, 02:19:43 pm by noncontingent »

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AgapeFire

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Re: White Supremacy Article Scares Me
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2020, 05:41:55 pm »
This is important, so pay attention "You TAKE offense, no one gives offense".

Also "The taking of offense is what rests in the bosom of the stupid ones" - Ecclesiastes 7:9

I'm sure you'll find this helpful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0MrHV3T-vI
When you pervert the meaning of Scripture, act in anti-social ways, go around giving unsolicited "lectures," and show no ability to recognize valid criticism toward you, I believe you need to step aside on this forum for a while, noncontingent. 

Maybe take some time off to reflect on why someone might find your way of interaction to be offensive and unwanted and why others on a public forum may not wish to deal with this type of behavior. 

-AF

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« Last Edit: October 19, 2020, 06:03:45 pm by AgapeFire »