palewine

  • **
  • 905 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Pretty much every book I've read on evolution
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2020, 07:44:10 am »
The Turing machine has been touted as explaining certain evolutionary adaptations too. This article is quite an eye opener in showcasing the amazing capabilities of it. I think we have said for quite some time now that nature seems very capable; natural processes are not all just "blind". And we think that certain quantum mechanisms could explain that. The origin of life does not have to be seen as an impossible feat for nature.

I confess that article was a bit beyond me, but it was interesting reading nonetheless. Thanks for sharing.

1

kurros

  • *****
  • 11850 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Pretty much every book I've read on evolution
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2020, 08:32:38 am »
Over 160 years now and the situation for die-hard evolutionists has gotten worse.

It takes a lot of faith to believe what they believe.

A lot of faith coupled with ignorance of the science involved.

Haha, sure. If that's what you need to believe to sleep at night.

2

Harvey

  • *****
  • 24665 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Pretty much every book I've read on evolution
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2020, 08:49:47 am »
I confess that article was a bit beyond me, but it was interesting reading nonetheless. Thanks for sharing.

I see no connection with the origin of life, however.

3

Mammal

  • ***
  • 4808 Posts
  • De facto
    • View Profile
Re: Pretty much every book I've read on evolution
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2020, 09:05:35 am »
I confess that article was a bit beyond me, but it was interesting reading nonetheless. Thanks for sharing.
I see no connection with the origin of life, however.
In reaction to both, see Dennett's article in The Atlantic.
Fact, Fiction or Superstition?
Thank God For Evolution
The Evolution Of God

4

Harvey

  • *****
  • 24665 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Pretty much every book I've read on evolution
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2020, 09:28:24 am »
In reaction to both, see Dennett's article in The Atlantic.

I still see no connection. Wolfram was discussing necessitarianism of the laws as a consequence of the ways "all possible rules" being applied to spaces. Dennett is talking about Turing as it relates to natural selection.

5

Mammal

  • ***
  • 4808 Posts
  • De facto
    • View Profile
Re: Pretty much every book I've read on evolution
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2020, 10:07:27 am »
^ Oh my. I did not intend to make such a claim on behalf of Wolfram. In fact I only linked Wolfram to try and illustrate the "amazing" potential of a Turing machine mechanism in the general context of my post.
Fact, Fiction or Superstition?
Thank God For Evolution
The Evolution Of God

6

Harvey

  • *****
  • 24665 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Pretty much every book I've read on evolution
« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2020, 10:21:57 am »
^ Oh my. I did not intend to make such a claim on behalf of Wolfram. In fact I only linked Wolfram to try and illustrate the "amazing" potential of a Turing machine mechanism in the general context of my post.

Okay, but how does this schematic increase the probability that abiogenesis occurred? I myself believe it occurred naturally, but I have no clue why it occurred and did so in the earliest period in which it could possibly occur.

7

Gordon Tubbs

  • ****
  • 5441 Posts
    • View Profile
    • Personal Blog
Re: Pretty much every book I've read on evolution
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2020, 10:30:04 am »
I think the Turing machine example isn't supposed to provide an explanation as such, but rather spark our imagination and lead us to consider ways in which our manifested reality could be the product of simple mechanisms -- with the Turing machine being an example of one. Of course, when you add up all the simple mechanisms, what you get is an irreducibly complex machine (ID trigger warning!), because no one mechanism can seemingly explain abiogenesis, or why galaxies mass into planar spirals, and so on and so forth. So far from being an argument for Naturalism, what we have is a foundation for deus ex machina-theism.
Ordained Minister of the Word and Sacrament (PCUSA)
Regent University, Master of Divinity (Chaplain Ministry)
US Navy (Active 2004-2009, Reserves 2012-2018)

8

Mammal

  • ***
  • 4808 Posts
  • De facto
    • View Profile
Re: Pretty much every book I've read on evolution
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2020, 12:37:06 pm »
Not sure I agree with you Gordon. It is not to say that a "Turing mechanism" viewed in conjunction with quantum mechanisms cannot account for well..mostly everything..which Wolfram alluded to and that Dennett further elaborated on, more specifically i.t.o. biological evolution.

It seems like a perfect fit for the multitude of processes that must have been required for the appropriate sequences required for life.
Fact, Fiction or Superstition?
Thank God For Evolution
The Evolution Of God

9

Harvey

  • *****
  • 24665 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Pretty much every book I've read on evolution
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2020, 12:43:29 pm »
I think the Turing machine example isn't supposed to provide an explanation as such, but rather spark our imagination and lead us to consider ways in which our manifested reality could be the product of simple mechanisms -- with the Turing machine being an example of one.

I myself think that there is a Logos attribute to the natural processes that work along the lines of the least action principle. There might not even exist a physical mechanism that says that paths that do not reach the end goal are cancelled out--they just do. So, in that theory, abiogenesis is the path that isn't cancelled out. Of course, this is a teleological theory of design. Hence, theistic evolution.

10

noncontingent

  • **
  • 630 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Pretty much every book I've read on evolution
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2020, 06:25:35 am »
Look, they can't even DESIGN in the lab even the simplest form of replicating life. No, they can't even find a path to generate even a carbohydrate through any imagined non-directed scenario.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zU7Lww-sBPg&t=2444s

It's not just that theism has been proved, even deism is ruled out because it's clear that there's been intervention repetitively to generate the life we see.


11

Mammal

  • ***
  • 4808 Posts
  • De facto
    • View Profile
Re: Pretty much every book I've read on evolution
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2020, 07:45:53 am »
I myself think that there is a Logos attribute to the natural processes that work along the lines of the least action principle. There might not even exist a physical mechanism that says that paths that do not reach the end goal are cancelled out--they just do. So, in that theory, abiogenesis is the path that isn't cancelled out. Of course, this is a teleological theory of design. Hence, theistic evolution.
Call it and believe what you like, but it does not necessary follow that hence..theistic evolution. The non-theist is under no obligation to agree with that conclusion.
Fact, Fiction or Superstition?
Thank God For Evolution
The Evolution Of God

12

Mammal

  • ***
  • 4808 Posts
  • De facto
    • View Profile
Re: Pretty much every book I've read on evolution
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2020, 07:47:56 am »
It's not just that theism has been proved, even deism is ruled out because it's clear that there's been intervention repetitively to generate the life we see.
No, not that we know of.
Fact, Fiction or Superstition?
Thank God For Evolution
The Evolution Of God

13

Harvey

  • *****
  • 24665 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: Pretty much every book I've read on evolution
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2020, 07:50:11 am »
Call it and believe what you like, but it does not necessary follow that hence..theistic evolution. The non-theist is under no obligation to agree with that conclusion.

But you guys consider improbable events as not only probable but inevitable. So, not sure why that view should be taken seriously.

14

Mammal

  • ***
  • 4808 Posts
  • De facto
    • View Profile
Re: Pretty much every book I've read on evolution
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2020, 07:56:14 am »
^ It still does not follow to only that particular conclusion.
Fact, Fiction or Superstition?
Thank God For Evolution
The Evolution Of God