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Harvey

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Geological evidence for Christianity
« on: October 27, 2020, 06:02:06 am »
Jesus said something that only makes sense in a geological timescale:

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Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, “Why couldn’t we drive it out?” He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”(Matthew 17:19-20)

Mark even says:

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Truly I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and cast into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says is going to happen, it will be granted him. (Mark 11:23)

While certainly Jesus was speaking metaphorically, there is a form of literalism when thinking in terms of geological timescales. What we now know but what wasn't known in Jesus' lifetime is that mountains can really move over there or be cast in the sea, but it takes milliions of years for something like that to occur. Perhaps over the centuries many skeptics of Christianity thought this a ridiculous falsehood by Jesus and even spoken as a metaphor waa completely ridiculous. But, once again the skeptic was proven wrong.

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ChristianInvestigator

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Re: Geological evidence for Christianity
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2020, 09:03:23 am »
Okay, but that mountains don't move in response to people having faith or not doubting in their hearts; they just move, over billions of years, no matter what humans do.

There are a lot of verses in the Bible that can be taken to predict scientific discoveries. Hugh Ross is big on this sort of thing. Like "The Lord stretches out the Heavens" was a reference to cosmic expansion, "Creation was subject to decay" is about Entropy and thermodynamics. I personally think it's a stretch; the point of these passages is to make a spiritual / symbolic point, not to predict scientific truths. Any apparent connection to science is, imo, just a coincidence.
"This year, though I'm far from home
In Trench I'm not alone.
These faces facing me,
They know... what I mean."

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Harvey

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Re: Geological evidence for Christianity
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2020, 09:43:20 am »
Okay, but that mountains don't move in response to people having faith or not doubting in their hearts; they just move, over billions of years, no matter what humans do.
science is, imo, just a coincidence.

This is what is being denied as true by Jesus.

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ChristianInvestigator

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Re: Geological evidence for Christianity
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2020, 09:45:07 am »
Okay, but that mountains don't move in response to people having faith or not doubting in their hearts; they just move, over billions of years, no matter what humans do.
science is, imo, just a coincidence.

This is what is being denied as true by Jesus.

Care to elaborate? Are you trying to say that mountains are literally moving over billions of years as a response to human faith?
"This year, though I'm far from home
In Trench I'm not alone.
These faces facing me,
They know... what I mean."

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Harvey

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Re: Geological evidence for Christianity
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2020, 10:01:16 am »
Quote from: ChristianInvestigator link=topic=6057247.msg1275755659#msg1275755659
Care to elaborate? Are you trying to say that mountains are literally moving over billions of years as a response to human faith?

Somewhere in the annals of time some Christian, out of faith, took Jesus' words literally and said "that mountain go into that sea." Guess where that mountain in a few million years is going as long as it is not contrary to God's will?

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ArtD

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Re: Geological evidence for Christianity
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2020, 11:35:05 am »
I once read a book written by a Christian woman who an accident had doomed to a wheelchair for the rest of her life.
She took Jesus at his word, prayed to be healed, wasn't healed but didn't let mere facts damage her faith.
What Jesus said about the power of prayer is false.
ScienceAsNaturalTheology.org

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Spero

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Re: Geological evidence for Christianity
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2020, 11:58:37 am »
I once read a book written by a Christian woman who an accident had doomed to a wheelchair for the rest of her life.
She took Jesus at his word, prayed to be healed, wasn't healed but didn't let mere facts damage her faith.
What Jesus said about the power of prayer is false.
Joni Eareckson Tada was it by any chance?
Pride goes before destruction,
and a haughty spirit before a fall.

- Proverbs 16:18

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Harvey

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Re: Geological evidence for Christianity
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2020, 12:32:24 pm »
I once read a book written by a Christian woman who an accident had doomed to a wheelchair for the rest of her life.
She took Jesus at his word, prayed to be healed, wasn't healed but didn't let mere facts damage her faith.
What Jesus said about the power of prayer is false.

Only if it is God's will. Even a mountain takes thousands if not millions of years to go move or go into an ocean.

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Spero

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Re: Geological evidence for Christianity
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2020, 12:52:04 pm »
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Only if it is God's will.
I would’ve thought that to be obvious...especially if one has read the NT from beginning to end, unless Art hasn’t.

God’s will ultimately trumps prayer requests. But, if that request is in line with the will of God, then faith is required to bring it to fruition.
Pride goes before destruction,
and a haughty spirit before a fall.

- Proverbs 16:18

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Harvey

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Re: Geological evidence for Christianity
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2020, 01:10:08 pm »
He probably forgot.

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Jabberwock

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Re: Geological evidence for Christianity
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2020, 02:09:35 pm »
God’s will ultimately trumps prayer requests. But, if that request is in line with the will of God, then faith is required to bring it to fruition.

If it is God's will, it will be done no matter whether someone believes anything at all or not.
First learn to spell "ironic discussion"...

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Harvey

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Re: Geological evidence for Christianity
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2020, 02:14:03 pm »
If it is God's will, it will be done no matter whether someone believes anything at all or not.

Unless our wills are part of God's causal sequence to decide to intervene or not.

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kurros

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Re: Geological evidence for Christianity
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2020, 02:48:38 pm »
I think the capacity of religion to enable the belief of such things as this is not a point in its favour.

Besides, even though mountains move very slowly, it is nonetheless perfectly measurable. They move on the order of millimeters per year. So we can test this hypothesis if you can supply a sufficiently devout individual.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2020, 02:51:28 pm by kurros »

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Spero

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Re: Geological evidence for Christianity
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2020, 03:22:54 pm »
God’s will ultimately trumps prayer requests. But, if that request is in line with the will of God, then faith is required to bring it to fruition.

If it is God's will, it will be done no matter whether someone believes anything at all or not.
I lost my best friend to a car wreck about a year and a half ago. We did just about everything together which included going to church. About two weeks after he died, I was driving down the street our church is on. I was stopped at a red light about a couple of blocks down from the church. I was in a pretty deep depression those two weeks and feeling particularly bad that day. While stopped at the light, I prayed in all sincerity for God to give me a sign that my friend was alive with Him and that I would see him again one day. His favorite hymn was “Be Thou My Vision,”  and I had the song in my head for almost the whole day. Just as I’m approaching the church, the bells started ringing out that hymn, which I never heard them do before. I pulled over, sobbed in happiness while listening to the whole thing, and then went on my way. From that moment on, the depression was gone. No doubt, you’ll think all this merely coincidental...but if it wasn’t: Did God ordain from all eternity that I be there at that exact time and place, asking Him what I asked in faith and sincerity just before the bells played the hymn, in accordance with His will from the beginning of time; or did God simply answer my prayer on the spot, miraculously ringing the bells Himself?  I believe it to be the former. This is how I believe prayer works, and it’s purpose is to draw us closer to Him...which it did. From my biblical perspective, this is the correct way to attempt to understand it.

As Harvey said, “..Part of God's causal sequence..”
Pride goes before destruction,
and a haughty spirit before a fall.

- Proverbs 16:18

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Jabberwock

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Re: Geological evidence for Christianity
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2020, 03:40:55 pm »
I lost my best friend to a car wreck about a year and a half ago. We did just about everything together which included going to church. About two weeks after he died, I was driving down the street our church is on. I was stopped at a red light about a couple of blocks down from the church. I was in a pretty deep depression those two weeks and feeling particularly bad that day. While stopped at the light, I prayed in all sincerity for God to give me a sign that my friend was alive with Him and that I would see him again one day. His favorite hymn was “Be Thou My Vision,”  and I had the song in my head for almost the whole day. Just as I’m approaching the church, the bells started ringing out that hymn, which I never heard them do before. I pulled over, sobbed in happiness while listening to the whole thing, and then went on my way. From that moment on, the depression was gone. No doubt, you’ll think all this merely coincidental...but if it wasn’t: Did God ordain from all eternity that I be there at that exact time and place, asking Him what I asked in faith and sincerity just before the bells played the hymn, in accordance with His will from the beginning of time; or did God simply answer my prayer on the spot, miraculously ringing the bells Himself?  I believe it to be the former. This is how I believe prayer works, and it’s purpose is to draw us closer to Him...which it did. From my biblical perspective, this is the correct way to attempt to understand it.

As Harvey said, “..Part of God's causal sequence..”

But this is even worse...

Suppose that a son prays for his father's health and his father gets better. If prayer cannot change God's will, then it means God at the beginning of time has decided to kill the father unless his son has prayed hard enough for him. Would you like to live thinking that some of the bad things that happen to people you love might be because you have not asked God sincerely enough? I would not.
First learn to spell "ironic discussion"...