bskeptic

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Scotland: hate talk in homes should be prosecuted
« on: October 30, 2020, 04:31:12 pm »
Criminal punishments for private conversations in your own home?

Because a judge / jury decide they have crossed the line into being "hateful"?


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hate-crime-bill-hate-talk-in-homes-must-be-prosecuted-6bcthrjdc

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a

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Re: Scotland: hate talk in homes should be prosecuted
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2020, 09:47:31 am »
I heard about this. My family were lowland Scottish nobility and I grew up on tales of the Scottish Wars of Independence, so watching my motherland succumb to the anarcho-tyranny of thought crime legislation is deeply disturbing. I don't think America will be far behind though.

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Spero

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Re: Scotland: hate talk in homes should be prosecuted
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2020, 05:04:33 pm »
I heard about this. My family were lowland Scottish nobility and I grew up on tales of the Scottish Wars of Independence, so watching my motherland succumb to the anarcho-tyranny of thought crime legislation is deeply disturbing. I don't think America will be far behind though.
The way our government is structured in the U.S., I think it will be way more difficult for such things to happen. But, who the hell knows.
Pride goes before destruction,
and a haughty spirit before a fall.

- Proverbs 16:18

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Fred

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Re: Scotland: hate talk in homes should be prosecuted
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2020, 06:50:52 pm »
Criminal punishments for private conversations in your own home?

Because a judge / jury decide they have crossed the line into being "hateful"?
Your article was the first I heard of it, and that article made it sound absurd.  However this article presents a bit different perspective.  The intent was to close an existing loophole in hate crime law that made exceptions for hate speech that occurred in someone's home.  A hate group of any size that could fit in a home could legally gather and do hate-group things.  This makes it not seem so crazy.  Maybe they can work out something reasonable.
Fred

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ChristianInvestigator

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Re: Scotland: hate talk in homes should be prosecuted
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2020, 10:56:11 am »
I think in general, free speech should be the rule. It's the best-known way to prevent authoritarianism and to prevent bad views from becoming normal. Nazi Germany and Communist Russia would never have lasted for so long or done so much evil if all people were guaranteed the right to express their opinions -- even controversial opinions.

That said, there are two situations when I think free speech can be reasonably restricted:

- Hateful speech should be restricted in academic and workplace environments, since people are trying to learn / make a living and shouldn't have to be distracted by Hateful speech. (However academic environments should also be bastions of free speech, so the defition of Hateful speech should be super specific to prevent misuse of the law).

- Counter-speech should be restricted if it reasonably prevents a voice from being heard. If there's a speaker you don't like, you can bring signs to protest and refuse to applaud, but you shouldn't be singing or booing constantly or shouting/chanting until the speech is done. Free speech is about all voices being heard -- not just the loudest ones. (I have no problem with protests being held outside the venue, however).
"This year, though I'm far from home
In Trench I'm not alone.
These faces facing me,
They know... what I mean."

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Re: Scotland: hate talk in homes should be prosecuted
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2020, 11:01:56 am »
I heard about this. My family were lowland Scottish nobility and I grew up on tales of the Scottish Wars of Independence, so watching my motherland succumb to the anarcho-tyranny of thought crime legislation is deeply disturbing. I don't think America will be far behind though.
The way our government is structured in the U.S., I think it will be way more difficult for such things to happen. But, who the hell knows.
It'll take longer but it'll happen. The Constitution is just a piece of paper at the end of the day unless it's enforced against govt by the people because the govt has taken extreme liberties in its interpretation. So much of what the federal govt does is blatantly unconstitutional. The abuse of the commerce clause enough warrants revolution.

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ChristianInvestigator

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Re: Scotland: hate talk in homes should be prosecuted
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2020, 01:32:45 pm »
I heard about this. My family were lowland Scottish nobility and I grew up on tales of the Scottish Wars of Independence, so watching my motherland succumb to the anarcho-tyranny of thought crime legislation is deeply disturbing. I don't think America will be far behind though.
The way our government is structured in the U.S., I think it will be way more difficult for such things to happen. But, who the hell knows.
It'll take longer but it'll happen. The Constitution is just a piece of paper at the end of the day unless it's enforced against govt by the people because the govt has taken extreme liberties in its interpretation. So much of what the federal govt does is blatantly unconstitutional. The abuse of the commerce clause enough warrants revolution.

What's the commerce clause? It's been a while since I took American government.
"This year, though I'm far from home
In Trench I'm not alone.
These faces facing me,
They know... what I mean."

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a

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Re: Scotland: hate talk in homes should be prosecuted
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2020, 01:39:23 pm »
I heard about this. My family were lowland Scottish nobility and I grew up on tales of the Scottish Wars of Independence, so watching my motherland succumb to the anarcho-tyranny of thought crime legislation is deeply disturbing. I don't think America will be far behind though.
The way our government is structured in the U.S., I think it will be way more difficult for such things to happen. But, who the hell knows.
It'll take longer but it'll happen. The Constitution is just a piece of paper at the end of the day unless it's enforced against govt by the people because the govt has taken extreme liberties in its interpretation. So much of what the federal govt does is blatantly unconstitutional. The abuse of the commerce clause enough warrants revolution.

What's the commerce clause? It's been a while since I took American government.
It's a sentence in the Constitution that grants Congress the right to regulate interstate commerce (as well as commerce with foreign nations). Probably the most abused clause in the Constitution, it's been used to justify everything from the New Deal to the War on Drugs.

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Fred

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Re: Scotland: hate talk in homes should be prosecuted
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2020, 07:22:05 pm »
Probably the most abused clause in the Constitution, it's been used to justify everything from the New Deal to the War on Drugs.
If you value the Constitution, and the extra-Constitutional principle of judicial review (formulated in Marbury v Madison), you should accept the way things are.  Laws are formulated consistent with the Commerce clause, and this has repeatedly been confirmed by SCOTUS.
Fred