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Harvey

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Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« on: November 13, 2020, 06:44:44 pm »
Giuliani in his latest video blog lays out the case of extreme voting fraud in the state of Michigan. If this gets to the Supreme Court Biden could certainly start losing states. Rather than declaring Trump the winner of the election I would rather see those swing states have a run off election on Jan 5th to match the run off election in Georgia.

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ArtD

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2020, 07:39:23 am »
If someone isn't smart enough by now to realize Trump lies as easily as other people breathe, then they aren't smart enough.
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Mammal

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2020, 10:45:39 am »
LOL.. Ditto for believing Giuliani. At this stage each and every legal challenge by the Trump camp is failing, or is withdrawn. There is zero merit in continuing with this farce. It is very troubling.
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Harvey

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2020, 11:04:48 am »
The Right sees a Left intent on creating more socialist states and will do anything to make that happen. I personally would like to be in a courtroom to see the evidence and counter arguments to the evidence. Giuliani has a great deal of experience as a prosecutor so I don't just dismiss him. You guys have to do that because of what you want to believe. I personally don't find what I want to believe a very reliable methodology at determining if evidence is legitimate or not. You guys evidentally are not too concerned about that.

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Mammal

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2020, 11:42:44 am »
Well, well, well. We say things because we want to believe them.. Harvey says he believes them because Giuliani is an experienced prosecuter..and wait for it..he wants to believe a very reliable methodology at determining the evidence..wow..
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Harvey

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2020, 12:48:21 pm »
The difference is that I don't know how credible Giuliani's evidence is and would love to hear opposing attorneys tell the judge why it is not justification to throw out those ballots. You, on the other hand, don't really care if it's true or not. It's that you have a preconceived notion about Giuliani from hearing continual ad hominem's against him that it's ridiculous for the evidence to be taken seriously.

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Mammal

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2020, 10:46:51 pm »
No, the difference is that I have read that the courts already rejected Trump's contesting of the Michigan result. And others. And that Biden has taken a unsurpassable lead where whatever is still open to scrutiny and recount, will not change the outcome. These are the facts.

Instead you fall victim to Trump's fake reality in which he, the GOP, Giuliani, Pompeo (visiting international leaders as we speak?), and millions of Trump supporters are being swept up and led to believe he will stay in the White House. Don't you see just how weird and uber undemocratic this has become? He "retains" the presidency by virtue of a lie that is believed by millions of Americans like you..? This is just another in a serious of Obama birther-, Chinese virus and other conspiracy theories. The man is a narcissist who is detached from reality, who will not accept-, or cope with his loss unless he is helped; and his party, his supporters are not helping. 

Trump has lost. The USA and the world have to move on. Democracy has to be respected and upheld.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2020, 12:06:40 am by Mammal »
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Harvey

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2020, 12:19:10 am »
No, the difference is that I have read that the courts already rejected Trump's contesting of the Michigan result.

No, there are two sets of court cases in Michigan. One is the Michigan state court and the other is the Federal court. The lower state court was rejected, however the Jessica Connarn affidavit had not been provided. It was provided to the Michigan appeals court, but it was denied pending more legal documents:

Quote
Court of Appeals deemed the appeal defective because the plaintiff failed to include necessary legal documents in the appeal. The court concluded plaintiff has 21 days to cure the defects, or the case will be dismissed.

The Federal court has not yet given its ruling on the case.


Quote from: Mamnal
And that Biden has taken a unsurpassable lead where whatever is still open to scrutiny and recount, will not change the outcome. These are the facts.

I don't know how accurate that is. It's definitely a longshot because Trump would need to overturn multiple states. The important point is if one or more of these cases comes before the Supreme Court then they could rule that fraudalent voting did impact the winner in that state. Perhaps they could rule in a manner that prevents future repeats of what we saw in this election.

Quote from: Mammal
Instead you fall victim for Trump's fake reality in which he, the GOP, Giuliani, Pompeo (visiting international leaders as we speak?), and millions of Trump supporters are being swept up and led to believe he will stay in the White House.

Did you ask me if that's what I believe or are you carelessly assuming that is my position like you often assume you know the facts when you really don't?

Quote from: Mammal
Don't you see just how weird and uber undemocratic this has become. He "retains" the presidency by virtue of a lie that is believed by millions of Americans like you..? This is just another in a serious of Obama birther-, Chinese virus and other conspiracy theories. The man is a narcissist who is detached from reality, who will not accept-, or cope with his loss unless he is helped; and his party, his supporters are not helping.  Trump has lost. The USA and the world have to move on. Democracy has to be respected and upheld.

That's not the issue as I see it. Of course Biden has won. However the voting process needs to become more secure to address these issues. The cited affidavits asserting gross fraudalent voting are very severe and if these issues, if legitimate, cannot be fixed then in is very destabilizing. Of course elections cannot be perfect, but they can be improved. That's why I want judicial review -- preferably from the Supreme Court which can impose restraints that prevent some of the worst abuses. Giuliani alleges some serious crimes in Michigan and other states. If valid, then it's really important to get Supreme Court action to force the states to enforce some federal guidelines that promote ultimate fairness.

Of course, if the claims of these affidavits are false or cannot be verified by multiple people, then we have to ignore this testimony.

But, make no mistake. Trump lost. By going the full legal route I think it helps to force these courts and the state election boards to put high priority on fixing the problems that are being alleged (or at least make the process more transparent such that it is more difficult to make these kind of allegations in the future).
« Last Edit: November 15, 2020, 12:24:19 am by Harvey »

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Spero

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2020, 12:47:03 am »
IMO, this all looks to be a lost cause, Harvey. The leads Biden has are too great at this point. If there is fraud ( and there is in any election ), it would have to be on an enormous scale to overturn the outcome - and I don’t think it’s there. Nevertheless, I don’t really mind it too much when things like this play out. Through these kinds of legal processes, fraudulent things to come to light and as a result, the system can be made better.

All in all, This is Trump just trying to save face after saying things like “Can you imagine losing to this guy?!” Tough pill to swallow for a guy like Trump. When the legal process plays itself out, the courts speak and the States certify, he’ll concede. I think historically, conceding directly after an election has always been a curtesy anyway. But after all that, and he doesn’t concede, that’s when I’ll jump on the “Trump extremely dangerous to our democracy” bandwagon.
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Mammal

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2020, 01:42:03 am »
Did you ask me if that's what I believe or are you carelessly assuming that is my position like you often assume you know the facts when you really don't?
---
That's not the issue as I see it. Of course Biden has won.
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That's why I want judicial review -- preferably from the Supreme Court
That IS the issue. Trump, Giuliani, Pompeo and the White House staff, plus some high ranking GOP officials are saying that it is business as usual and that Trump will remain where he is. People are gathering in their masses in the capitol city to claim that the elections were fraudulent.

Don't you see what is happening here? You are falling for it by entertaining the idea that the election should be tested by the Supreme Court who has a majority GOP representation... It should not. The state courts and the United States Electoral College should decide on this and get it over and done ASAP. Trump has lost by a far greater margin than what he defeated Clinton by, that is if you also consider the overall votes, and he claimed he had a landslide victory against Clinton. This man is deranged. Wake up, this is very undemocratic and an extremely intolerable situation. For all practical purposes America finds itself under a dictatorship right now, it is up to the systems and people to restore democracy.
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Harvey

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2020, 09:20:56 am »
Don't you see what is happening here? You are falling for it by entertaining the idea that the election should be tested by the Supreme Court who has a majority GOP representation... It should not. The state courts and the United States Electoral College should decide on this and get it over and done ASAP. Trump has lost by a far greater margin than what he defeated Clinton by, that is if you also consider the overall votes, and he claimed he had a landslide victory against Clinton. This man is deranged. Wake up, this is very undemocratic and an extremely intolerable situation. For all practical purposes America finds itself under a dictatorship right now, it is up to the systems and people to restore democracy.

I definitely see that (or at least have felt that), but the evidence for massive fraud appears, perhaps naively on my part, extremely real. I don't think it is as outlandish as you say given the testimonies that have been given. Therefore, I would like to see the court cases to move through the system and try to clean up what in my opinion looks like a mess in some cases. I don't expect the outcome to change, but I think it will make for a more transparent process. Of course, I hear your concern and this could turn into a gradual reliance on the judicial system deciding elections. That can't happen either. But, from what I see (perhaps naively), massive fraud was used to swing the results of the election and even if it is far-fetched to you deserves investigation and deserves more attention at the federal level to make the process more transparent. That won't happen in my opinion if Trump were just to concede. But, the danger is there in doing so.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2020, 09:23:07 am by Harvey »

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bdsimon

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2020, 09:22:25 am »
I don't doubt the intent of the results. There are issues and there was likely large scale voter fraud in Wisconsin, but I agree we should move on anyway. Election reform should be something the general public insists on before the next general election. Ballot harvesting should be illegal and mail in voting should be as well,  with some other method that is more reliable as an alternative. I want everyone that wants to vote to vote. I don't want people going door to door getting people to vote that don't have a clue. Anecdotally in Georgia, volunteers followed up with Dems that had ballots mailed to them and assisted in getting them completed and turned in.
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Harvey

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2020, 09:30:20 am »
Election reform should be something the general public insists on before the next general election. Ballot harvesting should be illegal and mail in voting should be as well,  with some other method that is more reliable as an alternative.

Nothing creates more impetus for change when something like this happens to expose the largescale fraud during the election counting process. It got this way for a reason. If the judical review was postponed until later it wouldn't have nearly the same impact in forcing change. Change might not even happen. Besides, Trump has a legal right to identify the corruption and challenge it. Many Americans, including myself, want to know if these allegations ars true. If true, then did they affect the results. Honest question.

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Mammal

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2020, 09:54:04 am »
^ Harvey, but you continue to push this fake narrative. There is very little evidence of a fraudulent election. According to the
Wall Street Journal Trump's own legal teams are unable to produce any. New York Times conducted a survey with state election officials, according to them there was no reason to doubt the accuracy of the results, in fact they reckon that it might have been one the least tainted elections ever.

Why do you keep on entertaining this kind of BS considering what is at stake?
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Harvey

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2020, 09:58:36 am »
The affidavits are real.