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Mammal

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2020, 10:02:20 am »
So why are Trump's lawyers not able to make a presentable case?
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wonderer

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2020, 10:16:19 am »
I definitely see that (or at least have felt that), but the evidence for massive fraud appears, perhaps naively on my part, extremely real.

I wonder about the extent to which white American Christians are going to turn away from democracy as their political power fades away.

I was talking to my mom the other day and asked her what she thought of Trump's recent behavior.  At one point she said something along the lines of, "Republicans need to get better at committing electon fraud."  It pretty much blew me away to hear that coming from my mom.
"The world needed that of us, to maintain—by our example, by our very existence—a world that would keep learning and questioning, that would remain free in thought, inquiry, and word." - Alice Dreger

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Harvey

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2020, 11:05:29 am »
So why are Trump's lawyers not able to make a presentable case?

Sorry, I don't subscribe to the Wall Street Journal so I have no access to what they denied.

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Harvey

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2020, 11:08:34 am »
I was talking to my mom the other day and asked her what she thought of Trump's recent behavior.  At one point she said something along the lines of, "Republicans need to get better at committing electon fraud."  It pretty much blew me away to hear that coming from my mom.

Which is why we need to stop voting without IDs, guarantee both sides view the counting -- complete transparency, no ballot harvesting, and no mail-in voting after the pandemic is over. If not, then your mom's sentiment will only increase.

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Mammal

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2020, 11:58:15 am »
So why are Trump's lawyers not able to make a presentable case?
Sorry, I don't subscribe to the Wall Street Journal so I have no access to what they denied.
Darn. I read it first time, now I am also prevented from reading everything. You are able to read the intro though:
Quote
President Trump has claimed widespread fraud was at play in the presidential election. Several of his lawyers have told judges in courtrooms across the country that they don’t believe that to be true.
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Harvey

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2020, 12:30:09 pm »
I really don't know enough details to comment. On a talk show one of the Trump campaign people said that Pennsylvania election officials violated the 14th amendment. He wasn't alleging massive counting fraud in Pennsylvania. So, without more information I cannot comment.

Needless to say, I doubt there is enough proof to say Biden didn't win. So, I fully expect him to win the election. My concern at this point is future elections as well as allow the Trump campaign due process.

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Mammal

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2020, 01:20:00 pm »
.. the Trump campaign due process.
No, it's not "due process". There is no evidence. It's a high-stake scam.
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Harvey

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2020, 01:23:18 pm »
.. the Trump campaign due process.
No, it's not "due process". There is no evidence. It's a high-stake scam.

Maybe/maybe not. But evidence such as this must be given its day in court. I realize you just go based on what you want the results to be. But, I prefer to investigate before concluding what the facts are.

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Spero

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2020, 03:27:51 pm »
I definitely see that (or at least have felt that), but the evidence for massive fraud appears, perhaps naively on my part, extremely real.

I wonder about the extent to which white American Christians are going to turn away from democracy as their political power fades away.

I was talking to my mom the other day and asked her what she thought of Trump's recent behavior.  At one point she said something along the lines of, "Republicans need to get better at committing electon fraud."  It pretty much blew me away to hear that coming from my mom.
LOL..So your mom’s a Trumpie?!  Look, I’m not sure how Biden would’ve behaved if things were reversed, but I’m sure he’d be under all sorts of pressure not to concede ( Hillary, herself, told him not to even BEFORE the election happened, absent any evidence at all! ) My guess is accusations of voter suppression would be everywhere...big white guys holding Bibles, bats and bazookas, etc intimidating minorities at voting sites.  Crap like this happens no matter which side wins..especially in this day and age.  Oh, I hope you still love your mother, btw. 🥺
Pride goes before destruction,
and a haughty spirit before a fall.

- Proverbs 16:18

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wonderer

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2020, 09:09:21 pm »
I definitely see that (or at least have felt that), but the evidence for massive fraud appears, perhaps naively on my part, extremely real.

I wonder about the extent to which white American Christians are going to turn away from democracy as their political power fades away.

I was talking to my mom the other day and asked her what she thought of Trump's recent behavior.  At one point she said something along the lines of, "Republicans need to get better at committing electon fraud."  It pretty much blew me away to hear that coming from my mom.
LOL..So your mom’s a Trumpie?!  Look, I’m not sure how Biden would’ve behaved if things were reversed, but I’m sure he’d be under all sorts of pressure not to concede ( Hillary, herself, told him not to even BEFORE the election happened, absent any evidence at all! ) My guess is accusations of voter suppression would be everywhere...big white guys holding Bibles, bats and bazookas, etc intimidating minorities at voting sites.  Crap like this happens no matter which side wins..especially in this day and age.  Oh, I hope you still love your mother, btw. 🥺
 

Pretty much all of my blood relations are Trumpies.  I live in Indiana, which no one sane doubted would go for Trump.

Yes, I still love my Mother. :-)
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Mammal

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2020, 10:59:55 pm »
Maybe/maybe not. But evidence such as this must be given its day in court. I realize you just go based on what you want the results to be. But, I prefer to investigate before concluding what the facts are.
Harvey, you do realize that you have just now become another gullible conspiracy theorist..? I mean this is linked to the QAnon conspiracy movement. Just how low would you go, how deep into that rabbit hole to find excuses to support an illegitimate president and risk the democracy of the USA? 

This is why there is absolutely no merit in it.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2020, 12:23:46 am by Mammal »
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Harvey

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2020, 08:24:34 am »
It's not a conspiracy theorist to determine if software is impacting the elections. Once the Georgia manual count is complete we will know whether the software is reliable or not. Be reasonable Mammal.

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Harvey

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2020, 09:46:23 am »
From what I can tell Pennsylvania is looking bad for Trump. They withdrew the complaint about not having fair access for Republican observers, so that means their sole court complaint in Pennsylvania is an unfair process in which mail-in voters from Democratic-heavy counties had election officials reach out to voters who submitted defective ballots but not to Republicans-heavy counties. But, you're not going to get 70,000 votes to make that difference. I can't imagine a Federal or State judge would throw out enough votes to win Pennsylvania. Just breaking the law is not sufficient reason to invalidate the will of the voters.

So, unless the software is miscounting in Georgia, it seems hard to see a path forward for Trump. So, I think this will be about it. I hope Trump concedes once the Georgia count matches the software count. The manual count is supposed to be completed by Wednesday. Trump's options after that look very hard to visualize.

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noncontingent

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2020, 09:52:47 am »
I suspect any atheist of lying at any time for any reason, seeing as how atheists have no ontic bedrock for good or bad save some form of utilitarianism.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2020, 07:31:36 pm by noncontingent »

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Harvey

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2020, 11:27:13 am »
I suspect any atheist of lying at any time for any reason, seeing as how atheists have no ontic bedrock for good or bad save some from of utilitarianism.

I think you're wrong about that. Atheists generally use the same moral sense as Christians except they deny the ontology by simply ignoring moral foundationalism.