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GRWelsh

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2020, 12:04:20 pm »
I suspect any atheist of lying at any time for any reason, seeing as how atheists have no ontic bedrock for good or bad save some from of utilitarianism.

Hmmm... That reminds me of a hymn I wrote for the Church of Ontological Bedrock.  It went something like this:

Oh Ontological Bedrock,
You are so absolute,
Oh Ontological Bedrock,
We're here to worship you.

Uncaused and non-contingent,
There's nothing else more true.
We've concluded your existence.
Although we've not met you,

Uncreated, groundless,
There's nothing under you,
You're the bedrock underneath us,
I think you're on my shoe.

Necessary and eternal,
There's nothing else more true.
Though abstract and impersonal,
We'll... paint... a... face... on... you.
The morning sun rose and burned off the ghosts; it seems they were nothing but shapes in the fog.

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wonderer

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #31 on: November 16, 2020, 01:22:23 pm »
Love it!
"The world needed that of us, to maintain—by our example, by our very existence—a world that would keep learning and questioning, that would remain free in thought, inquiry, and word." - Alice Dreger

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Harvey

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2020, 01:51:43 pm »
This thread should now be transferred out of the political debate section.

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noncontingent

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2020, 07:32:49 pm »
I suspect any atheist of lying at any time for any reason, seeing as how atheists have no ontic bedrock for good or bad save some from of utilitarianism.

I think you're wrong about that. Atheists generally use the same moral sense as Christians except they deny the ontology by simply ignoring moral foundationalism.

I'm not wrong about my suspicions, unless you feel you have some better sense of the internal qualia of my own mind.

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Harvey

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2020, 12:03:31 am »
I'm not wrong about my suspicions, unless you feel you have some better sense of the internal qualia of my own mind.

Ok. You're right that I don't know if you're wrong about what is your actual mental state.

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lucious

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #35 on: November 19, 2020, 12:30:50 am »
Harvey I have a lot of respect for you as a philosopher and commentator on science but it's starting to sound a little ridiculous.


I think anyone can see Trump is filing frivolous lawsuits that will go nowhere because of his malignant narcissism, and the fact his entire sense of self is bound up with the notion of being a "winner".

DHS said the election is the most secure in history. There has never been any evidence of mass voter fraud. Trump's own lawyers are abandoning him because they realize they can be disbarred if they lie to a federal judge. Trump's lawsuits are being laughed out of court.

I'm disappointed in that conservative thinkers I otherwise respect are falling prey to this. This narrative is retrofitting the facts to it and not the other way around. The narrative was pre-prepared ahead of time; everyone knew Trump would squeal about the election being stolen long before election day.


The narrative was created without any evidence and even in spite of the evidence. It's still being peddled despite the world moving on, and the motivation is not respecting democracy but anger and butthurt and narcissism.

Like Mammal said, this is an assault on democracy and fracturing national security and it can't be tolerated. Did you know the 9/11 commission found that the delayed transition between the Bush/Clinton administration left the country vulnerable to the worst terror attack in its history?


Anyone who cared about the country would realize the country comes first; the Presidency is a position of public servitude, you sit your allotted period and you leave peacefully. Does Trump seem like he cares about the country now?

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Harvey

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #36 on: November 19, 2020, 07:09:25 am »
Lucious, I'm motivated by three major concerns:
.
1) The Trump administration has a legal right to pursue a legal recourse. So, I have always respected that right. Given this is a close election they shouldn't feel disinclined to "test the waters" given how a party intent on no voter IDs and mail-in voting (known as a means to cheat the system) could reasonably change the outcome of a close election. Basically, we conservatives have absolutely zero trust in Democratic-runned voting districts. It's often corrupt in our view and with no voter IDs and mail-in ballots is a nightmare for anyone who has serious trust issues with these districts. Combine that with ballot harvesting is legal and some of the other shenanigans we've heard about (e.g., affidavits that there was a stopping of the count as Trump was winning as if to get more Biden ballots to keep up, post marking the ballots, etc.). Therefore, hell yeah  I absolutely want some legal challenges and investigating.

2) I think the election counting process could use some scrutiny based on above, so every now and then I think flushing out the system is overall good for America. After going through the legal process and following some of the legal challenges, I was happy to see a lot of integrity to the elections. So, I think that's a really good thing. Although, a manual recount in Georgia has exposed almost 10,000 voting ballots that were in error, the evil Dominion hypothesis designed to throw elections by millions of votes happily did not occur. The errors apparently were mostly clerical errors and nothing caused by software (this is still preliminary since the recount has not yet completed). While that's good news for the country, that large of an error in my opinion justified all of the actions taken so far. That's 10,000 votes that would have decided an election. Future elections must be improved to prevent such a thing in the future.

3) Given the concerns with ballot harvesting, voter IDs, etc. what I really would like is if a case can be brought before the Supreme Court that invalidates some of these open ends that I think can impact election results and lead to a mistrust of the system.  I'm not sure if this is the right process for this, but I would certainly like to see the High Court put rulings in effect that can give conservatives like myself more confidence in the system. Ten thousand ballots in favor of Biden is insane.

But, now that these errors and whatnot are showing that Biden absolutely won (at least there's no convincing evidence that he didn't), I am pretty satisfied that he won fairly (although I always thought he had won and this whole effort was a longshot). I don't see a problem with Trump getting a recount in certain areas in Wisconsin, but I certainly think he ought to start working with the Biden transition team.

You might see all of this as a negative, but I see it as a positive.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2020, 07:14:47 am by Harvey »

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Mammal

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #37 on: November 20, 2020, 12:57:29 am »
Georgia election recount yielded some 5,800 human errors across four counties. That is well within the margin to be expected. No evidence of fraud, or rigging. Biden's win over Trump was adjusted from just over 14,000 to just below 13,000 or thereabouts.

There is no single iota of evidence anywhere of election fraud. Now GOP in Nevada has challenged their result, while Trump summoned the GOP leaders in Michigan to the White House, apparently due to their unwillingness to question the results there..

Trump is still controlling GOP in order to hang on to power, he is still refusing to cooperate with the transition, democracy is still being faked out, America still gets further divided by conspiracy theories and outright lies.
Fact, Fiction or Superstition?
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The Evolution Of God

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Harvey

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #38 on: November 20, 2020, 06:47:17 am »
Other than Powell's assertions I see no evidence that could overturn the election results. The assertions however are very serious but will take a lot more time to validate. So, if validated in six months do we agree that Biden will need to resign and give the presidency back to Trump?



Jk

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Mammal

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #39 on: November 20, 2020, 07:53:59 am »
It took me 5 minutes to invalidate with fact check.. jk.
Fact, Fiction or Superstition?
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Harvey

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #40 on: November 20, 2020, 08:38:01 am »
It took me 5 minutes to invalidate with fact check.. jk.

Lol. Is that the same people who said that Biden didn't accuse Trump of xenophobia when he stopped flights from China on Jan 31?

Yep, it was.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2020, 08:42:33 am by Harvey »

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Mammal

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #41 on: November 20, 2020, 09:05:43 am »
I don't want to engage in a debate on such an old topic, but I don't see anything wrong with that fact check. Just saying.
Fact, Fiction or Superstition?
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Harvey

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #42 on: November 20, 2020, 09:20:02 am »
I don't want to engage in a debate on such an old topic, but I don't see anything wrong with that fact check. Just saying.

The fact check had absolutely no justification and the fact that the evidence was so obvious says that the organization doing the fact checking is like having a paper in Nature being reviewed by the people who bring you the Creation Museum.

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Mammal

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #43 on: November 20, 2020, 09:26:01 am »
Lol.. Fwiw, PolitiFact is not the only one saying that. Even Tucker Carlson thinks Powel does not have evidence for her wild claims.
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Harvey

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Re: Serious Voter Fraud is Alleged
« Reply #44 on: November 20, 2020, 09:51:05 am »
Lol.. Fwiw, PolitiFact is not the only one saying that. Even Tucker Carlson thinks Powel does not have evidence for her wild claims.

No, she hasn't provided any hard evidence. The evidence that her and Giuliani wish to provide is circumstantial. You can build a case like that, but it takes a great deal of time and effort. I myself am pretty skeptical of some massive national plot, so the case must be similar to showing the Higgs particle exists. I just don't think it's realistic in terms of there being such a massive conspiracy plot, and if it is, the level of data needed would be so extensive that I'm skeptical that this case is likely to be proven. Although neither of these is impossible.

More must be done assuring consistent ballot verification prior to when the voter signatures are verified. We need to end mail-in voting once the pandemic is over, and we need voter ID laws.

As it stands, 73 million people voted for Trump and more than 40 million believe Trump won. I think the same could be said for Hillary Clinton and Al Gore. So, any reasonable possibility that sews doubt must be addressed. Just because "your candidate" won this time should not be good enough for anyone to be comfortable with the process. There are now 40 million people who believe you have to engage in voting fraud for their next candidate to win. So, these allegations must be taken seriously in terms of making sure that they couldn't have occurred by making systemic changes so that they could not occur.

As for Trump, his behavior is getting scary. While his presidency was not as bad as I feared, the ending of his presidency is started to look scary. At this point he should be conceding unless there is evidence that's been recently provided that the rest of us has not seen. Circumstantial evidence won't extend his presidency, and asking judges to throw out so many ballots due to a few bad actors is not going to happen. 
« Last Edit: November 20, 2020, 09:54:58 am by Harvey »