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noncontingent

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The problem I have with philosophy
« on: November 16, 2020, 08:47:27 pm »
is not so much with philosophy any more than I have a problem with mathematics, chemistry or physics. In point of fact I am quite fond of philosophy. Having said that, the problem I have with philosophy is that it creates a biosphere of sorts where all manner of bad ideas can breed undetected as to their badness.

The Sokal affair is a case which proves that people love the obscure and the arcane. Some no doubt because they love solving difficult problems - well and good. So do I. But it's clear that some love it because it makes them incorrectly assume they're somehow superior to the hoi polloi who haven't been initiated into the mysteries of their cult.

Universities are full of these types. They take no joy in simplicity and clarity of expression. To me this is the same sort of person who like Loki is a trickster at heart. They drop names and use vocabulary weapons to exclude and confuse rather than to clarify.

I myself grew up in a household full of these types. I was able, on the other hand living in the midst of very common hard working people in Laredo and I could compare the households as to their wisdom.

I could see that even if these hard working individuals lacked the refined education of my own family, that they had something that my own found lacking - humility and practicality. There was of course much made of speaking well of those around them, but even in their compliments towards these there was a disrespectful paternalism. A paternalism which was neither wanted, nor needed. These people did well for themselves before the arrival of the gentry and would do so after these were gone.

But I'm losing focus. Here is where I have the biggest problem. These types of people who imagine themselves to be superior are not. They are not morally superior and when it comes to daily living and common sense these are inferior in every way...Except that they can verbally beat the common people. They trick them into believing, like the Sokal affair that they actually have some wisdom which ought be listened to. But when listened to and acted upon it ruins their lives. This is a moral crime.

I see this in the left. These say the right-sounding things, the wise-sounding things, like "Black Lives Matter", or "Income Inequality" but when you see the consequences to the objects of their "affection", we see that these objects are stunted and harmed in every way.

No doubt some may actually have tricked themselves into believing they are right, but some are likewise aware of what they are doing and continue doing so that they might stay in power and not be ignored.

It reminds me of the scripture about false teachers and how listening to them enslaves

"17 These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.”" 2 Peter 2:17-19

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GRWelsh

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Re: The problem I have with philosophy
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2020, 09:25:47 am »
What you are complaining about is sophistry.  And that Bible quote could equally apply to right-wing demagogues as much as you apply it to left-wing academics. 

... the problem I have with philosophy is that it creates a biosphere of sorts where all manner of bad ideas can breed undetected as to their badness.

Like theology?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2020, 03:09:12 pm by GRWelsh »
The morning sun rose and burned off the ghosts; it seems they were nothing but shapes in the fog.

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noncontingent

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Re: The problem I have with philosophy
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2020, 05:04:10 pm »
What you are complaining about is sophistry.  And that Bible quote could equally apply to right-wing demagogues as much as you apply it to left-wing academics. 

... the problem I have with philosophy is that it creates a biosphere of sorts where all manner of bad ideas can breed undetected as to their badness.

Like theology?

Both of these things can be true and are true. It's also not simple sophistry. The sophist, like the BS'er doesn't care about truth, but the badness present in all this goes beyond sophistry.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2020, 05:06:36 pm by noncontingent »

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GRWelsh

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Re: The problem I have with philosophy
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2020, 09:37:08 am »
The sophist, like the BS'er doesn't care about truth, but the badness present in all this goes beyond sophistry.

Could we be talking about Trump rallies?  Would you call them biospheres "where all manner of bad ideas can breed undetected as to their badness"?  After all, they seem to form their own insulated environments with their own alt-facts and are lacking in internal criticism and resistant to all external criticism.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2020, 09:45:04 am by GRWelsh »
The morning sun rose and burned off the ghosts; it seems they were nothing but shapes in the fog.

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noncontingent

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Re: The problem I have with philosophy
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2020, 09:45:50 am »
The sophist, like the BS'er doesn't care about truth, but the badness present in all this goes beyond sophistry.

Could we be talking about Trump rallies?  Would you call them biospheres "where all manner of bad ideas can breed undetected as to their badness" since they do seem to form their own environments with their own alt-facts and are lacking in internal criticism and resistant to all external criticism.

We could be talking about violent BLM/Antifa marches which burn down businesses, but then we've gone beyond ideas to actions.

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GRWelsh

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Re: The problem I have with philosophy
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2020, 10:25:55 am »
We could be talking about violent BLM/Antifa marches which burn down businesses, but then we've gone beyond ideas to actions.
 
I agree with you that rioting and destruction of property as part of a protest should be condemned.  The vast majority of BLM protests have been peaceful -- about 93% according to a study done over the summer.  But if you watched someone like Tucker Carlson on Fox News every night you would have had the impression all BLM protesters were rioters and all of America was burning.  Trump's strategy here was to stoke fears by equivocating BLM protesters with the rioters.  Why do this?  Because, evidently, conservatives would rather lie than admit the majority of BLM protesters are peaceful, exercising their constitutional rights, and actually have a legitimate complaint.

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/nation/2020/10/24/trump-claims-blm-protests-violent-but-majority-peaceful/3640564001/
« Last Edit: November 18, 2020, 10:38:38 am by GRWelsh »
The morning sun rose and burned off the ghosts; it seems they were nothing but shapes in the fog.

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noncontingent

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Re: The problem I have with philosophy
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2020, 10:54:25 am »
GR - Do you know why all sodas manufactured are kosher?

If you can answer that, you'll know why minority opinions dominate and have to be highlighted and fought against. (not kosher soda, BTW)

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kravarnik

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Re: The problem I have with philosophy
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2020, 02:40:21 pm »
We could be talking about violent BLM/Antifa marches which burn down businesses, but then we've gone beyond ideas to actions.
 
I agree with you that rioting and destruction of property as part of a protest should be condemned.  The vast majority of BLM protests have been peaceful -- about 93% according to a study done over the summer.  But if you watched someone like Tucker Carlson on Fox News every night you would have had the impression all BLM protesters were rioters and all of America was burning.  Trump's strategy here was to stoke fears by equivocating BLM protesters with the rioters.  Why do this?  Because, evidently, conservatives would rather lie than admit the majority of BLM protesters are peaceful, exercising their constitutional rights, and actually have a legitimate complaint.

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/nation/2020/10/24/trump-claims-blm-protests-violent-but-majority-peaceful/3640564001/

What difference does it make to the claim "BLM protests are violent", when you say "only 7% are violent(which is rather questionable, but let's grant that)"?

I don't understand, really. Does it mean that businesses of people weren't burnt and lives ruined? How would you react if conservatives started enslaving African-Americans, but only 7% of them? What difference does it make if 7%, or 70%, to the fact that what's being done is wrong?


Bro, you say God committed genocide in the Bible, but out of all the content in the Bible, only 2% has to do with wiping out particular tribe! Your approach is such a joke, because you seem to be assuming some moral high ground, whilst hand-waving away the ruined lives of people, cause "it's 7% GUYS! THE STUDY SAID! BUT YOU ARE LIARS!".
« Last Edit: November 18, 2020, 02:42:00 pm by kravarnik »
"And even if you crush my body and drain it 'til the last drop - you can never touch my spirit, you can never touch my soul. No matter how bleak or how hopeless, no matter how hard or how far - you can never break my conation. Tear the will apart from desire." Insomnium - Weather the storm

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kravarnik

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Re: The problem I have with philosophy
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2020, 02:48:02 pm »
Guy works hard his entire life. He comes from a poor family. Eventually he makes it and grows a small successful business. One night, though, some people were unhappy with white people and the current President and for some reason, this guy's business was assaulted and he himself beaten in the process.

Laying down there, on the ground before his former business, he can barely get up on his feet. One of the 93% comes along, nicknamed GR the Empathizer, asking him:

- How are you, man? Are you OK?!?! Need some help?!
- I will be OK, but I never would have guessed that the tolerant ones would get violent and burn down my business, beat me up and leave me here stranded in need of help!
- Violent... ? - said GR, whose blood started boiling - YOU CLUELESS ONE! A study shows that only 7% do that! But you're a conservative liar, who watches freaking Fox's Tucker Carlson!
"And even if you crush my body and drain it 'til the last drop - you can never touch my spirit, you can never touch my soul. No matter how bleak or how hopeless, no matter how hard or how far - you can never break my conation. Tear the will apart from desire." Insomnium - Weather the storm

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noncontingent

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Re: The problem I have with philosophy
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2020, 08:24:14 pm »
kravarnik...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry3NzkAOo3s

"...the peaceful majority were irrelevant"

B. G's perfect response.

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GRWelsh

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Re: The problem I have with philosophy
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2020, 09:31:59 am »
I didn't say the 7% who are rioters are exonerated by the 93% who are peaceful protesters.  My point was we should not paint them all with a broad brush and put them all in the same category as "BLM/Antifa/Communist/Rioters."  The people who do that obviously don't want to address what prompted the BLM protests in the first place -- they'd rather shift the emphasis.  Black men being killed while in police custody needs to stop.  And then you won't have the protests, or the protests that turn into riots.  But no, conservatives don't want to admit there is a problem in police culture, and that racism is a factor. 
The morning sun rose and burned off the ghosts; it seems they were nothing but shapes in the fog.

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noncontingent

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Re: The problem I have with philosophy
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2020, 11:32:35 am »
I didn't say the 7% who are rioters are exonerated by the 93% who are peaceful protesters.  My point was we should not paint them all with a broad brush and put them all in the same category as "BLM/Antifa/Communist/Rioters."  The people who do that obviously don't want to address what prompted the BLM protests in the first place -- they'd rather shift the emphasis.  Black men being killed while in police custody needs to stop.  And then you won't have the protests, or the protests that turn into riots.  But no, conservatives don't want to admit there is a problem in police culture, and that racism is a factor.

You really should educate yourself.

The expert on this is Heather MacDonald. After you've read or listened to her lectures you can come back and we can continue this conversation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_daDiI2M_c