General Discussion

Political Threads

Read 1035 times

Harvey

  • *****
  • 25246 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: The U.S. Capitol
« Reply #60 on: January 13, 2021, 06:15:21 pm »
I'd really like to hear if you agree or disagree that the fundamental problem is the belief in a falsehood about election rigging.  Do you disagree that it's a falsehood?

I think it is false that there is enough evidence to overturn the election. If such evidence existed I believe the Judicial branch would have acted on it.

Quote from: Fred
If so, do y0u agree it's the reason so many Trump voters feel disenfranchised?

No, I think most Trump protestors are unaware of the consequences of rejecting the results of an election victory with not enough evidence to legally contest it. The country is more important than who is president.

Quote from: Fred
The question of "election rigging" can't be dismissed as a matter of political opinion. Trust in the election process is fundamental to our system of government.

Trusting in the process to correct itself is how I would phrase it. Can we trust crooked people, no? But, we can trust that over time these processes will become more transparent and legal, however legal battles, statistical analysis, etc. must continue. What we cannot allow is for the narrative that "he won fairly" to be accepted without having these challenges (assuming analytics support these contentions).

Quote from: Fred
In the meantime, I'll answer your question: no, of course not.

Then let's tone down the rhetoric and stop destabilizing the country by seeking goals that benefit Democrats and punish Trump supporters.

1

Spero

  • ***
  • 1456 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: The U.S. Capitol
« Reply #61 on: January 13, 2021, 06:18:59 pm »
Quote
What's left is impeachment. Will this change the minds of any Republicans who feel "disenfranchised" based on the falsehood?  Probably not, but I don't see that it's going to make it any worse.
Could it make Trump worse? That’s my concern right now.
Pride goes before destruction,
and a haughty spirit before a fall.

- Proverbs 16:18

2

Mammal

  • ****
  • 5088 Posts
  • De facto
    • View Profile
Re: The U.S. Capitol
« Reply #62 on: January 14, 2021, 12:42:28 am »
But, you then set a precedent by virtue of not taking any action against incitement of insurrection because you are afraid of how those who are already incited might react. Slippery slope. Trump could come back in 4 years and do some further incitement.
It's a reality of living in a divided America. Otherwise the next one to be impeached is probably Kamala.
This is why the right precedent needs to be set. To avoid a repeat of such incitement by future presidents (notwithstanding their party). By failing to do so, future presidents will have no fear of impeachment for such behavior.
Fact, Fiction or Superstition?
Thank God For Evolution
The Evolution Of God

3

bdsimon

  • ****
  • 7110 Posts
  • δοῦλος
    • View Profile
Re: The U.S. Capitol
« Reply #63 on: January 14, 2021, 06:30:19 am »
Quote
What's left is impeachment. Will this change the minds of any Republicans who feel "disenfranchised" based on the falsehood?  Probably not, but I don't see that it's going to make it any worse.
Could it make Trump worse? That’s my concern right now.
It might, and that is definitely a concern. My larger concern is that we just impeached a president without an investigation or hearings and more information about the attacks are coming out each day. So we have convicted someone without even really knowing what the crime is yet.
Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.

4

GRWelsh

  • ***
  • 3714 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: The U.S. Capitol
« Reply #64 on: January 14, 2021, 07:09:51 am »
My larger concern is that we just impeached a president without an investigation or hearings and more information about the attacks are coming out each day. So we have convicted someone without even really knowing what the crime is yet.

The impeachment is separate from the conviction.  Impeachment means something like accusation or bringing charges against the President by the House of Representatives, before it goes over the Senate for a trial for conviction or acquittal.
The morning sun rose and burned off the ghosts; it seems they were nothing but shapes in the fog.

5

Harvey

  • *****
  • 25246 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: The U.S. Capitol
« Reply #65 on: January 14, 2021, 07:32:10 am »
This is why the right precedent needs to be set. To avoid a repeat of such incitement by future presidents (notwithstanding their party). By failing to do so, future presidents will have no fear of impeachment for such behavior.

One representative is already drawing up articles of impeachment for Joe Biden. Impeachment might just become a common procedure that members of a controlling party of the House and Senate do to overturn the will of the people.

6

bdsimon

  • ****
  • 7110 Posts
  • δοῦλος
    • View Profile
Re: The U.S. Capitol
« Reply #66 on: January 14, 2021, 08:32:36 am »
My larger concern is that we just impeached a president without an investigation or hearings and more information about the attacks are coming out each day. So we have convicted someone without even really knowing what the crime is yet.

The impeachment is separate from the conviction.  Impeachment means something like accusation or bringing charges against the President by the House of Representatives, before it goes over the Senate for a trial for conviction or acquittal.
I fully understand what an impeachment is and how it works. Has there ever been an impeachment without an investigation or hearings before? I'm not talking about the trial in the Senate.
Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.

7

Mammal

  • ****
  • 5088 Posts
  • De facto
    • View Profile
Re: The U.S. Capitol
« Reply #67 on: January 14, 2021, 09:16:27 am »
One representative is already drawing up articles of impeachment for Joe Biden. Impeachment might just become a common procedure that members of a controlling party of the House and Senate do to overturn the will of the people.
Meh, it would seem many Republicans are distancing themselves from Trump now and that there could be some support for the impeachment from their side too. I really don't think it is the will of the people for presidents to incite their supporters to overrun the people's appointed legislation on Capital Hill.
Fact, Fiction or Superstition?
Thank God For Evolution
The Evolution Of God

8

GRWelsh

  • ***
  • 3714 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: The U.S. Capitol
« Reply #68 on: January 14, 2021, 09:17:30 am »
I'm more worried that a President can do something this obviously heinous and treacherous, yet not be convicted because of Party line loyalty.  This should be a non-partisan no-brainer.  He should be removed from power as soon as possible.

Trump supporters call some Republicans "RINOs" -- Republicans In Name Only -- but IMO it is the Trump-supporting "enablers" in Congress who are RINOs for betraying their own principles and responsibilities in order to follow a cult of personality.  They defend lies and conspiracy theories.  Maybe Trump is such a narcissist and mentally ill enough to not be able to accept defeat -- but that doesn't excuse the Republicans in Congress who go along with his delusion.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 11:52:31 am by GRWelsh »
The morning sun rose and burned off the ghosts; it seems they were nothing but shapes in the fog.

9

wonderer

  • *****
  • 15340 Posts
    • View Profile
"The world needed that of us, to maintain—by our example, by our very existence—a world that would keep learning and questioning, that would remain free in thought, inquiry, and word." - Alice Dreger

10

Fred

  • ****
  • 5684 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: The U.S. Capitol
« Reply #70 on: January 14, 2021, 09:43:14 am »

I think it is false that there is enough evidence to overturn the election. If such evidence existed I believe the Judicial branch would have acted on it.
That is true, but it's too weak in that it implies it's reasonable to believe the election was stolen, but there was simply insufficient evidence to prove it. In fact, the best explanation for the evidence is that the election result was honestly obtained. 

Quote
Quote from: Fred
If so, do y0u agree it's the reason so many Trump voters feel disenfranchised?

No, I think most Trump protestors are unaware of the consequences of rejecting the results of an election victory with not enough evidence to legally contest it. The country is more important than who is president.
If there were a rational basis to believe the election was stolen, that would make sense.  But since there isn't, it doesn't make sense. Someone with a basic understanding of epistemology should be able to see that, if they take the time to evaluate the facts, and apply inference to the best explanation.  Something like this should not be judged through a political lens, which typically assumes one's own side is virtuous, and the other is corrupt.  That's a dangerous premise.

Quote
Quote from: Fred
The question of "election rigging" can't be dismissed as a matter of political opinion. Trust in the election process is fundamental to our system of government.

Trusting in the process to correct itself is how I would phrase it. Can we trust crooked people, no? But, we can trust that over time these processes will become more transparent and legal, however legal battles, statistical analysis, etc. must continue. What we cannot allow is for the narrative that "he won fairly" to be accepted without having these challenges (assuming analytics support these contentions).
There have been challenges, and they have failed.  These failures should factor into one's judgment.  The rhetoric should also be factored in: months prior to the election, Trump asserted that he could only lose if there was fraud.  I'll bookend this with the assertions Trump made in his call with Raffensperger: Trump was making specific assertions of fraud that had already been disproven.

The concern you have previously expressed is with ballot harvesting. I understand that this is a legitimate concern, but the possibility of ballot harvesting does not entail that it occurred, and most certainly doesn't entail that it occurred on such a widespread basis that it could have resulted in producing a fraudulent result in a number of states. 

Quote
Quote from: Fred
In the meantime, I'll answer your question: no, of course not.

Then let's tone down the rhetoric and stop destabilizing the country by seeking goals that benefit Democrats and punish Trump supporters.
Trying to get everyone to accept the facts does not constitute punishment. I do not expect the general population to assess the facts and draw reasonable conclusions, but I do expect that of our political leaders - and I expect it of anyone who has the knowledge and expertise to do so. If one chooses not to take the time, then one ought to step aside, let others do it, and accept their analysis.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 10:17:22 am by Fred »
Fred

11

Harvey

  • *****
  • 25246 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: The U.S. Capitol
« Reply #71 on: January 14, 2021, 11:44:27 am »
That is true, but it's too weak in that it implies it's reasonable to believe the election was stolen, but there was simply insufficient evidence to prove it. In fact, the best explanation for the evidence is that the election result was honestly obtained.

I disagree with what's in bold. Just because we deny there's not enough evidence to believe X (the election was stolen) does not mean believing X is reasonable. Generally speaking, the lack of evidence for X is reasons enough to not believe X as necessarily reasonable.


Quote from: Fred
If there were a rational basis to believe the election was stolen, that would make sense.  But since there isn't, it doesn't make sense. Someone with a basic understanding of epistemology should be able to see that, if they take the time to evaluate the facts, and apply inference to the best explanation.  Something like this should not be judged through a political lens, which typically assumes one's own side is virtuous, and the other is corrupt.  That's a dangerous premise.

I have no reason to believe the election was pure as white snow. Obviously ballot harvesting makes it impossible to know what actually happened and I have no reason to trust people who have given me no reason in particular to trust them. But, there's not enough evidence to suggest the election results would have been significantly different had there been no corruption at all. So, the best we can say to all Trump supporters is that the country means more than one individual taking office fairly or unfairly. We get behind Joe Biden, wish him well, and hope he governs wisely. In the meantime to have more trust in future elections we want to eliminate ballot harvesting and mail in ballots. If this is why more blacks voted for Joe Biden than Barak Obama in both terms, then the election was a lucky fluke for Dems (as I suspect). That's not to say the election was stolen, but rather events were lucky for Biden. That's the price we pay for having elections. They aren't perfect but they are far better than the alternative.

Quote from: Fred
There have been challenges, and they have failed.  These failures should factor into one's judgment.  The rhetoric should also be factored in: months prior to the election, Trump asserted that he could only lose if there was fraud.  I'll bookend this with the assertions Trump made in his call with Raffensperger: Trump was making specific assertions of fraud that had already been disproven.

The concern you have previously expressed is with ballot harvesting. I understand that this is a legitimate concern, but the possibility of ballot harvesting does not entail that it occurred, and most certainly doesn't entail that it occurred on such a widespread basis that it could have resulted in producing a fraudulent result in a number of states. 

Real statistical analysis and investigation is going to take many months.

Quote from: Fred
Trying to get everyone to accept the facts does not constitute punishment. I do not expect the general population to assess the facts and draw reasonable conclusions, but I do expect that of our political leaders - and I expect it of anyone who has the knowledge and expertise to do so. If one chooses not to take the time, then one ought to step aside, let others do it, and accept their analysis.

We don't live in an elite dictatorship.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 11:47:44 am by Harvey »

12

Fred

  • ****
  • 5684 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: The U.S. Capitol
« Reply #72 on: January 14, 2021, 12:01:36 pm »

Quote from: Fred
Trying to get everyone to accept the facts does not constitute punishment. I do not expect the general population to assess the facts and draw reasonable conclusions, but I do expect that of our political leaders - and I expect it of anyone who has the knowledge and expertise to do so. If one chooses not to take the time, then one ought to step aside, let others do it, and accept their analysis.

We don't live in an elite dictatorship.
Except for some minor quibbling I could do, I thought your post was pretty good. But this assertion makes no sense to me - unless you don't understand what I'm saying.

I believe Trump's loud, emotional assertions about the election being stolen had an effect on perceptions.  His attacks on those who failed to support his claims have been obvious, and I believe this resulted in political leaders refraining from criticizing Trump's claims. They didn't want to incur Trump's wrath (which is politically hazardous) and they didn't want to put off voters who support Trump, and whose votes they need.

  Individuals want their chosen candidate to win, and when they are given reasons to think he did win - some of them are apt to embrace that.  In short, the rhetoric from the right has promoted the claims of fraud to the point where many have been misled.  My desire is for Republican political leaders to correct the misperception they gave. That is not elitism, it is reigning in the error that inflamed the passions that led to the insurrection.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 12:03:26 pm by Fred »
Fred

13

Harvey

  • *****
  • 25246 Posts
    • View Profile
Re: The U.S. Capitol
« Reply #73 on: January 14, 2021, 03:50:36 pm »
I liked George W. Bush's comments:

Quote
Laura and I are watching the scenes of mayhem unfolding at the seat of our Nation's government in disbelief and dismay. It is a sickening and heartbreaking sight. This is how election results are disputed in a banana republic -- not our democratic republic.

I am appalled by the reckless behavior of some political leaders since the election and by the lack of respect shown today for our institutions, our traditions, and our law enforcement. The violent assault on the Capitol -- and disruption of a Constitutionally-mandated meeting of Congress -- was undertaken by people whose passions have been inflamed by falsehoods and false hopes.

Insurrection could do grave damage to our Nation and reputation. In the United States of America, it is the fundamental responsibility of every patriotic citizen to support the rule of law. To those who are disappointed in the results of the election: Our country is more important than the politics of the moment. Let the officials elected by the people fulfill their duties and represent our voices in peace and safety.

May God continue to bless the United States of America.

14

lapwing

  • ****
  • 8769 Posts
    • View Profile
    • Not my website but explains my choice of name and avatar
Re: The U.S. Capitol
« Reply #74 on: January 14, 2021, 05:17:49 pm »
Harvey,

You seem to be using legal/illegal as a get out. Make immigration illegal then it's ok to build a wall and stop immigration . Is that your argument?

It was you who provided a link which used Sandra Bullock entering a Chinese space station in the film Gravity as an example of  "China taking control of Hollywood".

It was you who called China a "Nazi regime". I proved that was a false statement.
For by one sacrifice Jesus has made perfect forever those who are being sanctified.

"Those who are still afraid of men have no fear of God, and those who have fear of God have ceased to be afraid of men"
"If the world refuses justice, the Christian will pursue mercy"
Dietrich Bonhoeffer